The "1936 Black Forest UFO crash"

[Dai]

I was unsure whether to post this here or not - please move if inappropriate.

For many years now - in fact since soon after WW2 and the Roswell incident - there has been much speculation regarding weird and experimental aircraft produced in Germany, prior to and during WW2. I find it rather tiresome that most places online go straight down the rabbit hole, or quote the same flimsy sources again and again, bringing nothing new to the table. What is also really off-putting and something I don't really want on my PC, is that such sites all-too-often are the haunt of New World Order, Holocaust denying types: "The truth is indeed out there", they'll state "-but the Rothschilds and Masons are hiding it." Of course they are.

If you type in "1936 Black Forest Crash" or "1936 Freiburg UFO incident" you'll come across such sites sooner rather than later.

My question is - when did this story first come to light? I appreciate that in Hitler's Germany, by 1936, freedom of the press was a fading memory and so any reports of an aircraft crashing (particularly if it turned out to be some sort of above top-secret Luftwaffe project) would be smacked down: so when - and allegedly how - did this story first appear? Has this story been doing rounds only since we've had the internet, or can it be traced back further?

Any pointers or suggestions are warmly welcomed.

Cheers,

Dai

 

[BAYLOR]

Wow , Ive never heard of this one .

 

[Dai]

This is typical of the articles online. Repetitive, the same article - or substantial parts have been copied and pasted over and over again.

Always citing secret SS documents as proof, but of course, never showing them - or if they do, usually so badly reproduced that they are impossible to read. Strange that. Citing an author who uses the pseudonym John/Jan von Helsing whose book is sort of thing the Institute for Historical Review (You can swap "Historical" for "Holocaust") would lap up. It is a loop.

My interest in this case is comparatively minor - the alleged case is in no-way the meat of the story I'm working on - and my work of fiction diverges dramatically from what you might call canon, as far as Nazi UFO mythology goes. A minor character will find a piece of what looks like aircraft debris - I'm keen to know what time of year the alleged incident happened - that way I can dress the character appropriately, perhaps say they were out hunting, that they found the going through the snow hard going etc.

 

[Venusian Broon]

This is typical of the articles online. Repetitive, the same article - or substantial parts have been copied and pasted over and over again.

Always citing secret SS documents as proof, but of course, never showing them - or if they do, usually so badly reproduced that they are impossible to read. Strange that. Citing an author who uses the pseudonym John/Jan von Helsing whose book is sort of thing the Institute for Historical Review (You can swap "Historical" for "Holocaust") would lap up. It is a loop.

My interest in this case is comparatively minor - the alleged case is in no-way the meat of the story I'm working on - and my work of fiction diverges dramatically from what you might call canon, as far as Nazi UFO mythology goes. A minor character will find a piece of what looks like aircraft debris - I'm keen to know what time of year the alleged incident happened - that way I can dress the character appropriately, perhaps say they were out hunting, that they found the going through the snow hard going etc.

The author cited is apparently, real name, Jan Udo Holey - who according to their Wikipedia is 'controversial' who embraces conspiracy theories such as: "In Geheimgesellschaften*, Holey combines science-fiction, esotericism, Nazi-mythology, ufology and "Zionist global domination" theories. He also employs The Protocals of the Elders of Zion as a source**."

I found an article on the "Thule Gesellschaft and the Vril Society" that states:

"It could very well be that the technology to build Vril-Odin originally came from a mix of alien technology and channeled information, but Vril-Odin was built by humans from this same channeled information, plus the instructions in the ILAT-LITUM.According to Herbert G. Dorsey and other researchers they had, besides the construction plans the Vril-Gesellschaft had received through telepathic contact with extra-terrestrials, a non-terrestrial saucer that had crashed in the Black Forest in 1936 and whose undamaged drive had proved a great help to the Germans. But there is practically no proof of that, and no living eye witnesses are known. "

You can check out the rest of the article here: Thule Gesellschaft and the Vril Society | IndyMedia - the author of this article, I don't know, but check out the credits at the top of the article. The author of this article himself called Jan Udo Holey a 'Nazi Mystic'.

Honestly this is so lacking in information, I suspect it is just 'science fiction' invented by Holey as part of his book. I think he published his book in 1995. Which feels about right for a UFO crash theory, given that we were just getting into the X-files, Bob Lazar had started to "open up Area 51" a few years previously and he was also probably feeding off a number of older esoteric, UFO and Nazi sources. Claims of Nazi flying saucers and/or Hitler living in Antartica or some other mountain fastness have been out and about at least since the 1950s.
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* A book of his, apparently banned in Germany, France and Switzerland for inciting anti-semitic hatred
** Which is a clear sign which side his bread is buttered, as this is an extremely well-known hoax used to spread anti-semitism.

 

[Dai]

Thank you VB, that is really useful stuff. Your points * and **: yep, sadly all too common on pages dealing with the more esoteric aspects of 3rd Reich history.

I see that you live in Edinburgh - a beautiful, history-rich city which I think lends itself to creative writing: I'm a veteran of Leith

 

[Venusian Broon]

Thank you VB, that is really useful stuff. Your points * and **: yep, sadly all too common on pages dealing with the more esoteric aspects of 3rd Reich history.

I see that you live in Edinburgh - a beautiful, history-rich city which I think lends itself to creative writing: I'm a veteran of Leith

Essentially if he assumes the Protocols are true one must assume he's likely to be lying/fabricating quite a lot of other stuff!

Via my 20 year+ subscription to The Fortean Times I have read quite a bit about 'UFO' encounters pre-1947 and Kenneth Arnolds sightings, and I racked my brains if I could remember any 1936 German encounter cited, but couldn't come up with anything. There were of course numerous FOO fighter sightings by all sides during the War, that were not identified as alien.

Interestingly there were numerous 'Airship flaps' in the US at the end of the 19th Century and early 20th Century. Stories of odd flying airships that stopped, 'strange men' coming to the ground and usually asking for water that they needed for their craft. However, trying to actually tie down actual historical evidence for this is...extremely difficult. And I think it's likely that virtually all the stories were invented by US newspapers out in the vast sticks, to sell sensationalist stories on quiet news days. So more like proto-SF. As, after all this was the golden period for writers such as HG Wells or Verne, and balloons had been flown since 1793.

Of course there could have been numerous UAP (Undentified Aerial Phenomena) correctly reported and true, where people did think they saw Airships - I do believe there's still weirdness out there that can produce some fascinating phenomena. Hence there are strange accounts that perhaps would have been identified as 'UFO's' and more specifically alien craft today that go way back...but of course people who did observe these things then would have not had such ideas of extraterrestrial or flying saucers in their minds. (It's interesting that many old Faerie encounters share lots of similar things with modern day 'UFO abductions or visitations'!)

If I had a city passport then it would be stamped: Glasgow-Edinburgh-Cambrige-London-Edinburgh. Edinburgh on the Pentland Hills in the South-West. (Yes, I'm a weegie. But I have an auld Reekie accent)

 

[Dai]

"Essentially if he assumes the Protocols are true one must assume he's likely to be lying/fabricating quite a lot of other stuff! ". I sometimes work in Dachau and have met both survivors (not just Jewish guys either, but all sorts) and G.I.'s who were there in 45, and reading that sort of thing, well, it boils my piss.

I digress.

I was watching some stuff on YouTube a while back about these "airships"...yep you might be right, journos cashing in on the latest big thing. You mention Faerie encounters and you are right, there are a lot of similarities. I was just last week reading Wirt Sikes' "British Goblins" (1880) and there are some striking parallels like lost time, sometimes physical changes to the body, observing something while the person next to you sees nowt etc - comparisons which Randles looks at in her "Mind Monsters: invaders from inners space?". Worth a look and you can get it on Amazon for less than the price of a small bottle of Bucky

 

[Vladd67]

Interestingly there were numerous 'Airship flaps' in the US at the end of the 19th Century and early 20th Century. Stories of odd flying airships that stopped, 'strange men' coming to the ground and usually asking for water that they needed for their craft. However, trying to actually tie down actual historical evidence for this is...extremely difficult. And I think it's likely that virtually all the stories were invented by US newspapers out in the vast sticks, to sell sensationalist stories on quiet news days. So more like proto-SF. As, after all this was the golden period for writers such as HG Wells or Verne, and balloons had been flown since 1793.

I seem to recall reading in The Fortean Times that the Airship flaps were probably the result of lying competitions that were popular at the time.

 

[Dai]

Fascinating stuff...and what a fun, outlandish concept.

 

[Danny McG]

Fascinating stuff...and what a fun, outlandish concept.

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