Why Glory

[Lafayette]

First off, please forgive me if I'm in the wrong forum. I really don't know which forum to put my subject in.

I have a character that desires glory. I though it was a good theme for a story, however truth be told, I didn't put much thought into it. A critiquer told me it didn't resonate with him. There was no what will happen to the person not gaining glory? Is glory worth dying for?

I was and am stumped.

I think I may have picked up the idea somewhere (perhaps King Arthur) that knights sought glory. I also vaguely recalling that one of the reasons the Marque de Lafayette wanted to help the Americans to gain their independents from Great Britain was to earn glory. There were of course other reasons.

If this is true, concerning Lafayette, then why? Why was it so important to him that he risked his reputation (even though it was small) and his life for it? What was he thinking of? Was he actually a moron?

Or was seeking glory back then a common ideal? Was there any rationality to it?

 

[CupofJoe]

For me, Glory is usually what comes along as a side effect of doing something else, that others respect and value.
If Knights wanted Glory. They wanted it to raise their profile and reputation. This could be gain the favour of a king or to be thought of as worthy - pious - something that makes them above the rest.
I don't know the history of Lafayette well enough to talk about American history. But my guess it would be the Glory of doing something for some noble reason. Beating the British might be enough on its own.
Glory for Glory's sake is fairly vain, like wanting to be famous, just for being famous.

 

[Toby Frost]

I have to say that it doesn't really work for me. "Glory" sounds too much like "vanity" to my mind - at least, personal glory. It gets perilously close to "so everyone can see how great I am". The easiest answer would be to make the character concerned for someone else: looking for the cure to a disease, rescuing a loved one, that sort of thing. Or just wanting to get back to their normal life. I think if I read a story where someone was motivated purely by glory, I'd be half-expecting them to lose their ideas, realise that war is hell, or something along those lines. I agree that it works better as being alongside something else: I recently read a book where a monk built a cathedral for the glory of God, but clearly his own vanity was in there too.

Knights were weird, and their world-view, based at least in part on a very interventionalist God, was different even to the outlook of most religious people now. A story like Sir Gawain and the Green Knight doesn't really work with modern morality: Gawain's sense of honour is like a samurai's.

 

[Lafayette]

For me, Glory is usually what comes along as a side effect of doing something else, that others respect and value.

That is also one my thoughts.

If Knights wanted Glory. They wanted it to raise their profile and reputation. This could be gain the favour of a king or to be thought of as worthy - pious - something that makes them above the rest.

Now that you mentioned it, I guess gaining glory was very important to them back then. I'm also thinking with glory came wealth something even we of today want and need.

Glory for Glory's sake is fairly vain, like wanting to be famous, just for being famous.

I think this was one of the things that was throwing me in that I couldn't give a reason for it. It could be for a knight gaining glory was more of a practicality than an ego trip.

Thank you for your insight.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I feel it needs more - unless you’re doing it in an ironic way that those who seek glory don’t find it or something. But as a means for me to buy into a character I’d struggle. It’s too insular and shallow.

In terms of Arthur they sought glory in brotherly companionship, to inspire each other to greater heights. It wasn’t personal glory but collective

 

[Vladd67]

Isn’t the desire for glory the basis of Cross of Iron? The officer desperately trying to win an iron cross compared to the NCO who knows better?

 

[Venusian Broon]

I would think of glory, or the search for great renown and honour, not in the individualistic sense. A person by him or herself striving for 'glory' makes no sense. It is to measure yourself against your peers, to make yourself equal or higher than other great people. What you did with that glory, if won, was up to you. It could be a ticket into higher social circles., or it could just be an 'entrance exam' into a group that expected certain ideals. Perhaps society rewards those who do the right actions and titles and riches would be showered on the worthy. Perhaps just the attainment of what society deemed glory would be enough by itself.

Knights throughout history held ideals and commonalities between them. Martial prowess, Chivalry, protect the King, say (That's not to say all knights were pure and followed all ideals selflessly, some were just robber barons desperate for wealth and power). Hence attempting great deeds would organise the social class, sort the wheat from the chaff, make great knights stand out from the ordinary ones, and then being demonstrably better, a knights liege - King, Earl or Lord may recognise this and confer honours and other gifts. Honour may be wealth and land, but it could also being included in an elite unit, or just getting respect from all other knights.

It is different IMO than seeking fame, although there are parallels, especially if you see media fame seekers from our persepective of a much more individualistic and atomised society today. You don't attain glory by winning the TV show Big Brother, you win glory by trying to build a bigger empire than Alexander the Great.

TL;DR You have to have a society or class that values glory, to make individuals attempt to attain it.

 

[Lafayette]

I feel it needs more - unless you’re doing it in an ironic way that those who seek glory don’t find it or something. But as a means for me to buy into a character I’d struggle. It’s too insular and shallow.

My original idea or theme was: Glory Has a Price. The problem was or is, I couldn't give the heroine a good enough reason to want to seek glory. She is not a shallow person.

 

[Toby Frost]

In that case, it sounds as if she'd need a different motivating factor to make her go on the quest.

 

[G.T.]

Agreed, you need her to go on a quest that ultimately benefits others, who would then glorify her accomplishments. Joan of Arc territory, almost.

Your "glory has a price" theme would not so much be a lesson for the heroine to learn but for the reader to understand.

 

[DLCroix]

Hi! I associate glory with resignation but linked to a certain solidarity. That allows me to understand my brother, for example: he doesn't want to be buried with the country's flag; he wants the flag of his company to be placed on his coffin; even, if possible, he would prefer there to be one flag of his squad: out of twelve men there are already ten left but they are his family.

In my saga I have dealt with this subject a lot and it never has to do with rewards or recognition but with extreme situations. I have many chapters where desperate defenses are described in which what motivates the sacrifice (look at what coincidence, also the protagonists are women) has to do with the idea of protecting something, usually people who are not military and cannot defend themselves. For example, a division that is quite sinister, racist, very radical, indoctrinated, etc., feared even by the army, is sent with the task of setting fire to a country but ends up defending it. In other words, I suggest that your heroine must go through a process of understanding that leads her to make the decision that makes her become a heroine. From this point of view it is quite effective that even she has an opposite view or is initially someone, say, radical, arrogant, etc, and somehow the facts push her towards a crisis. For example, in a romantic situation she may have to renounce her love for a higher good, to save something, someone, a marriage with the enemy king to avoid invasion of her country, etc; there must always be a fear that this damage is her own fault; although I recognize that my approach to various stories puts it like this, let's say linked to redemption.

That is to say, glory is not sought; rather, it is the consequence of actions. For example, Aragorn says: "By Frodo" and runs towards the bad guys (who are many) sword in hand knowing that they are going to kill them all up; he is completely unaware that there is a last minute goal that saves them. Well, this approach, yes, it is not a matter of redemption, but of mere honor. We do not give up !, etc.

 

[Capricorn42]

Achilles went to fight in the Trojan war because he believed that although he would probably die, he would also win a particular place in history and thus be remembered ever after. Despite all his victories up to that point, it could be said that for him, ultimate glory could only be found in being remembered and revered after his death.

 

[Wayne Mack]

For me, have a back story for a character is helpful. Although I have this in my notes, I will probably never put it in the story or only vaguely hint at it. It helps me, though, ensure that the character acts in a logical manner.

Seeking glory could be spun many different ways and lead to different interpretations of the character. The character may have a strong underlying sense of right and wrong driving him or her to chase glory. The character may have a lack of self-confidence and seeking to show his or her self-worth. The character may be competitive and seek to out do some rival. There are probably a lot of other options.

In your mind, roll back the character five years or so and determine an incident that drives him or her to chase glory. You will find that even if it isn't ever stated in the novel, it will start to leak out in the way the character acts and it will tend to make the character more interesting to the reader.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Achilles went to fight in the Trojan war because he believed that although he would probably die, he would also win a particular place in history and thus be remembered ever after. Despite all his victories up to that point, it could be said that for him, ultimate glory could only be found in being remembered and revered after his death.

I believe Achilles was given the choice of living a long peaceful life in comfort or to die young but be renown for all time amongst men.

He chose the renown and glory because, of course, he was a fiction made up by storytellers who were promoting the ideals of ancient Greek martial culture. Alexander the Great famously tried (and quite possibly succeeded to have bested Achilles in some manner) in emulating him, having been fired up by a childhood filled with the tales of the heroes. Hence Alexander's hot-headed rush to be in the midst of the battle risking his life, for example.

The Iliad was seen by those in the classical world almost like a 'bible' that guide a Greek (or Roman) warriors on how to behave and act. I would thoroughly recommend the book Soldiers and Ghosts by JE Lendon that has, as one of its strands the impact of the Iliad on Greek and Roman warfare - if you are interested!

 

[JS Wiig]

I enjoy an arc where the character starts out seeking glory, but finds out there is something more—something less self-gratifying—to be had.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Glory is rooted in narcissism - the need to be worshipped, admired, talked about at great length, etc.

 

[Brian G Turner]

"Glory" in itself was not a standalone concept, but instead was closely connected to a range of other key cultural concepts, from Ancient Rome to Mediaeval Europe. Additionally, it was the preserve for men competing against each other to be leading patriarchs in patriarchal society. Why would a woman seek "glory"?

With that in mind, I very much agree with what others have said in that she may need a different primary motivation.

 

[Boneman]

Weren't the samurai motivated by that duty to kin and clan and leige lord, but fought for glory. Even a glorious death?

 

[Lafayette]

Thank you all for your time and comments. Didn't really expect so many and so insightful. I wish I went here in the beginning perhaps then I would have had a better idea of what I'm doing and not doing and not wasting time. I will study your comments some more.

Thanks again.

 

[msstice]

In general, the quest for glory is a very relatable motivation. The definition of glory is

high renown or honor won by notable achievements.

However, in order to have a story the reader has to feel the negative side too. What happens when the quest for glory fails?

The flip side of glory is shame and/or obscurity. The reader has to be convinced that the character is afraid of dying in shame and/or obscurity and now you have the stakes.