Monster mythology rework help

[The Multiverse]

This may get into the TL;DR catagory of posts, so if you see this and think, "Oh heeeeell no!", feel free to pass up on this post. No feeling will be harmed in doing so.

One of the projects i've been working on as an exercise of sorts is reworking fantasy creatures mythos in such a way that they would be misunderstood. Only through rumons, prejudice, and superstition would the lore we know of today come into being. In my current predicament, i'm reworking vampire lore. I have the basic vampire lore the way i want it, the problem is that i'm trying to tie ghouls into the lore with vampires.

Most common in vampire lore, those bitten become zombie like slaves to the vampire's will. I want the symbiotic creature to seem like it could be classified as "undead" by simple minded people. A zombie is literally a rotting corpse so i'm leaning towards ghouls instead.

Vampires are pail, humanoid, quiet, long lived creatures. In the lore i'm creating, it's customary to plant a certain kind of tree/plant that, when planted over a corpse, will take a vague appearence of the one buried beneath. The tree/plant has a soft wood and crimson blood colored sap. Vampires fangs are used to pierce the tree allowing them to feed on the sap. The soft wood allows the puncture holes to seal up without harming the tree, though this isn't immediate and red sap can be seen leaking down the tree/plant when the vampire is forced to retreat. Retreat due to negative stigma from humans. Due to the vampire's preferred food being abundant in human graveyards, vampires have been considered undead and rumored to feed on humans.

I'm trying to have ghouls be very primitive creatures. Not quite capable of speaking, but able to understand simple concepts. I want them to look like emaciated humans. Since they are considered undead and often seen around vampires, i'd like to tie them together in some kind of symbiosis, yet i'm drawing a blank.

This is where i'm currently stumped, and though i do have some ideas, none really grab my attention.

Hit me with your best shot.

 

[tinkerdan]

This is interesting:
However, to help, I think there needs to be some clarification on vampires and Ghouls in your universe.
There needs to be more information about your Vampire.
Where do they come from--can humans be made into vampires--does that work the way it does in our legends.
The vampires bite trees, apparently--however you haven't excluded them drinking human blood nor have you included it.
What happens in the sunlight--how do they die--or can they be killed.? Are they a threat to humans.
And so on and so on.

It seems the term Ghoul comes from Arabic origins.

It seems that the story goes...they eat flesh and in some stories they can transform themselves to the image of the last person they ate. [Truely unique take on grokking].
Some have sucked blood, steal coins and prey on children.
Also some lore say they can transform(shapeshift)into animals--mostly hyenas.

Anyway--they could be aborted attempts at creating vampires or deliberately stunted vampires.
Vampires lore says they can change to bats to the changing to hyena's would fit.
Vampires are seen traveling with packs of hyena's.
They have drinking blood in common--if in fact your vampires drink blood.

Still we end up with a lot of ifs without some more specific definition of the terms Vampire and Ghoul as they apply in your world.

I think once you start locking down what they do and don't do what is lore and what is 'fact' that the connection between the two might become evermore clear.

However; just by lore as we know it, I could see some connections.
I can envision a strange image of a vampire lurking in the dark with strange shadowy figures around that often look like overlarge hyena and just as often almost take on a sinister human like shape; gangly hunched or stooped shadows with indistinct arms and hands that often look more like hoofs or hammers.

 

[JS Wiig]

Have you written any stories around this lore?

 

[Wayne Mack]

Two ideas that spring to mind are an evolutionary split and a recessive gene. These are similar because they provide a biological relationship between vampires and ghouls.

The evolutionary tree may have split causing a divergence in vampire and ghoul lines. Ghouls remained relatively simpler creatures, perhaps with a short lifetime. Vampires evolved the ability to ingest the blood sap giving them longevity, which in turn gave rise to greater intelligence. There probably needs to a rationale why the Ghoul strain did not die out -- perhaps the Vampires cultivated the Ghouls for some reason.

In the recessive gene approach, the Ghoul may be the dominant form, but occasionally the genes align and a vampire is birthed. Given the genetic advantage, the few Vampires tend to govern the Ghouls. Alternately, the recessive trait may be reversed. Vampires could be the dominant form and Ghouls are the pitied offspring that result on rare occasions.

There are probably other explanations, but right now my mind is sort of fixated on giving them a common genetic background.

 

[Venusian Broon]

What about having Ghouls as the pupae intermediate state before becoming a full 'bloodied' vampire.

And that another reason vampire might hang about graveyards is to "propagate" by using recently dead humans, (perhaps they have a mating season where they are powerfully attracted to corpses??). Note I'm not saying that the vampire would endulge in what we might describe as necrophilia, but some sort of activity that leaves a deposit of a 'vampire egg' inside the corpse. The vampire might then take the corpse and physically help it 're-birth' as a ghoul.

These ghouls would naturally be damaged from the previous death and the resultant break down of tissues via decay, hence be slow and stupid. Then as the new vampire tissue grows inside and alters the flesh into vampire DNA and structures they could get further disorganised - perhaps as the new vampire cells and biology grows from the inside out, (perhaps leaving a lot of the human flesh dead?)

Also this new creature being more feral and less intelligent as it's vampire brain would be 'hacked' into what remained of the human one and be growing over time, hence would rely on its instincts and would just know that vampires were the same 'sort of creature' as them, hence explain why they tended to be together.

Couple of issues:

- If vampires were long living then making a lot of ghouls would rapidly fill up the world. So....perhaps the success rate of a ghoul eventually transforming into a vampire is extremely low. Genetic incompatibility? hunted by humans? The decay process overtaking the ability of the vampiric core to survive? Perhaps some ghouls just remain in the pupae state and don't change?

- What if a vampire were to deposit in a living human (by mistake)? Perhaps humans immune systems are just too strong for the seed and an aflicted human would have a fever/ailment for a few weeks, but generally all recover with no side effects? Which is why they need dead humans - to ensure that the immune system is damaged/switch off?

EDIT

Oh! further thoughts: the folklore of damaging the corpse to stop it rising again, by humans would make sense. Because no matter how powerful the process of vampiritian is, it would not reconnect a severed neck!

There would be an issue of why wouldn't vampires 'farm' living humans then kill them and let them fall into the perfect state of decay that allows most optimum chance of re-birth. But I'm sure I could come up with good story reasons why this isn't the preferred option....

 

[Wayne Mack]

Another thought. What if you made the Ghouls the higher order race? The Vampires' growth is restricted by the need for sustenance from the blood tree. The Ghouls are freed from that restriction. The Ghouls keep the Vampires for breeding purposes, but are otherwise the dominant race.

 

[The Multiverse]

This is interesting:
However, to help, I think there needs to be some clarification on vampires and Ghouls in your universe.
There needs to be more information about your Vampire.
Where do they come from--can humans be made into vampires--does that work the way it does in our legends.
The vampires bite trees, apparently--however you haven't excluded them drinking human blood nor have you included it.
What happens in the sunlight--how do they die--or can they be killed.? Are they a threat to humans.
And so on and so on.

It seems the term Ghoul comes from Arabic origins.

It seems that the story goes...they eat flesh and in some stories they can transform themselves to the image of the last person they ate. [Truely unique take on grokking].
Some have sucked blood, steal coins and prey on children.
Also some lore say they can transform(shapeshift)into animals--mostly hyenas.

Anyway--they could be aborted attempts at creating vampires or deliberately stunted vampires.
Vampires lore says they can change to bats to the changing to hyena's would fit.
Vampires are seen traveling with packs of hyena's.
They have drinking blood in common--if in fact your vampires drink blood.

Still we end up with a lot of ifs without some more specific definition of the terms Vampire and Ghoul as they apply in your world.

I think once you start locking down what they do and don't do what is lore and what is 'fact' that the connection between the two might become evermore clear.

However; just by lore as we know it, I could see some connections.
I can envision a strange image of a vampire lurking in the dark with strange shadowy figures around that often look like overlarge hyena and just as often almost take on a sinister human like shape; gangly hunched or stooped shadows with indistinct arms and hands that often look more like hoofs or hammers.

I'm not aiming for anything genuinely frightening. Vampires do not feed on actual blood. With the superstition surrounding the trees and the dead, the vampires feeding on the trees is seen by many superstitious to be feeding on human blood.

Sunlight is extremely uncomfortable but not fatal. Think light sensitivity due to a pale complexion and good night vision, making them almost exclusively nocturnal.

Vampires are a class of monster, in my current universe all monsters have a magic stone that helps convert consumed matter into mana. Vampirism is not a disease that can be transmitted. Though i'm just trying to rework monsters myths into something that is perectly harmless and easily misunderstood by common folk.

In my current universe, monsters have the ability to heal faster than humans baeed on the mana available to them. They all have natural limits to how fast healing can occur though so no instant regeneration for lower class monsters. A monster can be dealt enough damage to the organs and vital areas to hault bodily functions. Nothing extreme. Being monsters with mana reinforcing the body, they'll boast better strength and skills in some areas when companed to humans. I'm thinking double the strength of a normal man. I'm not aiming for transformation into a bat, but i like the transformation into mist part. I'm thinking of making it a natural skill to shroud themselves in mist to cover their escape thus giving the illusion that they turn into mist.

As for the ghoul problem, after reading through the comments, i had not considered subspecies as a pissibility. In subspecies lore, the varient is often the more powerful of the two. I'm thinking that vampires are a subspecies of ghoul. It would definitely fit and still sticks to the misunderstanding theme that i'm trying to stick with.

Thoughts?

 

[The Multiverse]

Have you written any stories around this lore?

Not yet. I write down world mechanics and ideas to be utilized in stories as i go. My english professor told me that it's not normal for a person to be able to pull ideas out of thin air like i do and encouraged me to focus on exercising that skill. This is mostly just an exercise towards that end. Though admittedly, i enjoy creating material for others who are suffering writers block.

It's like we are watching tv in the same room, but i'm behind the tv. I see what you see, just from a vastly different perspective. It lets me get around problems most people struggle with. If i'm ever helping someone, i'll post a link to my google docs worksheet for my mechanics and basic ideas. It usually helps.

 

[The Multiverse]

Two ideas that spring to mind are an evolutionary split and a recessive gene. These are similar because they provide a biological relationship between vampires and ghouls.

The evolutionary tree may have split causing a divergence in vampire and ghoul lines. Ghouls remained relatively simpler creatures, perhaps with a short lifetime. Vampires evolved the ability to ingest the blood sap giving them longevity, which in turn gave rise to greater intelligence. There probably needs to a rationale why the Ghoul strain did not die out -- perhaps the Vampires cultivated the Ghouls for some reason.

In the recessive gene approach, the Ghoul may be the dominant form, but occasionally the genes align and a vampire is birthed. Given the genetic advantage, the few Vampires tend to govern the Ghouls. Alternately, the recessive trait may be reversed. Vampires could be the dominant form and Ghouls are the pitied offspring that result on rare occasions.

There are probably other explanations, but right now my mind is sort of fixated on giving them a common genetic background.

This is what i'm going with. I had not considered genetic kinship in lore subspecies are more powerful and more advanced than the regular species. So vampires will become the subspecies of ghouls. It will help tie them together as well as stay within the misunderstood theme i'm trying to stick with.

I really appreciate this feedback. It helped tremendously. Thank you very much.

 

[The Multiverse]

Another thought. What if you made the Ghouls the higher order race? The Vampires' growth is restricted by the need for sustenance from the blood tree. The Ghouls are freed from that restriction. The Ghouls keep the Vampires for breeding purposes, but are otherwise the dominant race.

i'm not aiming for anything nefarious. Ghouls will have lower intelligence than vampires and will follow the vampires lead. Through vampire instruction, ghouls can be useful in tending to foid supplies and shelter upkeep. More ghoulds exist than vampires. Though vampires are stronger than ghouls, their true strength is in their intellect and their ability to lead ghouls and other vampires.

 

[JS Wiig]

Not yet. I write down world mechanics and ideas to be utilized in stories as i go.

Sometimes I find that getting characters in the midst of some plot action helps me flesh out world building details I’m having trouble with. It also helps me determine which world building details are important and which are not.

 

[tinkerdan]

What @JS Wiig said...