The Lord of the Rings - Second Age - Amazon Prime

[Elckerlyc]

Go ahead. Anyone can create new threads. I haven't enough to say, myself. We can split this thread up, but it has been mainly about the reaction to the series as a whole, and very little on the individual episodes.

Yes, exactly.
I'll write a (amateurish) review of episode 1 (which no doubt will shock purists and 'lorerites' for its ignorance or even the lack of mentioning of Middle-Earth lore - because it isn't about that [well OK, up to a point]).

 

[ctg]

I'll write a (amateurish) review of episode 1 (which no doubt will shock purists and 'lorerites' for its ignorance or even the lack of mentioning of Middle-Earth lore - because it isn't about that [well OK, up to a point]).

You can only get better with the practice. I really don't want to do the posts, because I will be super critical because of my love for Tolkien's world. It is not beneficial to anyone. Least to me, spending up to three hours per episode analysing their mistakes. A fan of the show should be the one doing the posts.

 

[Dave]

I have created three new threads here:

1.01: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - A Shadow of the Past

----------------------------- Creating topic, remember you can only discuss this episode inside this topic. Reviews of the episode are encouraged ----------------------------- Galadriel is disturbed by signs of an ancient evil's return; Arondir makes an unsettling discovery; Elrond is...

www.sffchronicles.com

1.02: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - Adrift

----------------------------- Creating topic, remember you can only discuss this episode inside this topic. Reviews of the episode are encouraged ----------------------------- Galadriel finds a new ally while Elrond is not welcomed at an old friend's home. Meanwhile, Nori strives to help a...

www.sffchronicles.com

1.03: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - Adar

----------------------------- Creating topic, remember you can only discuss this episode inside this topic. Reviews of the episode are encouraged ----------------------------- Arondir finds himself a captive, Galadriel and Halbrand explore a legendary kingdom, Elendil is tasked with a new...

www.sffchronicles.com

I can't do a long synopsis either, so just using that given by the studio. I'll be away for a couple of weeks so someone else can do more using the same format.

We'll probably move them to some dedicated forum eventually (depending how busy they get.)

 

[pogopossum]

Thanks for responding to the request by therapist Dave,
I do think however that you have erred on the other side. As the series progresses, there will still be
desires to speak to the overall series, while the individual episodes will fade in interest.
No matter what you do someone will find fault, hmm?
But again, thanks for being responsive.

 

[Dave]

As the series progresses, there will still be desires to speak to the overall series, while the individual episodes will fade in interest.

This thread will still remain here, for a spoiler free discussion of the whole series. That's how it works for other TV series forums (even those based upon books that people might be more familiar with than the TV series itself.)

Having individual episode threads allows people to discuss important developments that happen in that episode without spoiling it for others who haven't yet seen that episode. If someone were to post something about i.e. episode 10 in this thread, and you had only watched up to episode 3 then you wouldn't be that pleased about it.

And don't forget that there may be people reading this is a few years time, who came to the series late.

 

[pogopossum]

From your lips to Ilúvatar's ears.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I've been out of action here for a few days—sparing you the gruesome details, I'll just say that my reasons involved dental work and a lot of pain medications and antibiotics. I've continued to read the posts in this thread, and many thoughts have been swirling around in my head, but the energy to respond here has been physically and mentally absent. I'm quite a bit better today, and before I am back for more torture tomorrow (and another episode in the evening), I think I had better make an effort to catch up. So prepare for a marathon of my thoughts!

my comparison of Hal to Aragorn was only on the most superficial of levels: he's the pretty-faced traveller who knows how to fight, hides his noble origins and wants nothing to do with a throne out of fear power will corrupt him like it did his ancestors.

The thing is, I don't think that Hal is anything like Aragorn, even assuming that Galadriel's guesses about who he is are right. But first I should say there are two different Aragorns, book Aragorn and movie Aragorn. Yes, superficially Hal may seem a bit like movie Aragorn, but that is just because Peter Jackson decided that Aragorn needed a character arc and gave him a lot of doubts that were not there in the books. Book Aragorn was raised by the elves in Rivendell in order to protect him from the enemy (we do get a glimpse of this in the movie when we see how comfortable he is in Elrond's house). When he came of age he was first told his true name and the history of his house. He was not at all ashamed of his ancestry and was in fact quite excited to learn the truth. He was not ashamed to be descended from Isildur, and had no doubts about his ability to rule. His only concern was whether and when the timing to assume that role might be right. He spent the next decades roaming Middle Earth, sometimes in the wilderness leading the Rangers, spending a long time under an assumed name in Gondor and Rohan, where he came to be regarded by the ordinary people as a hero. He is not recognized in The Two Towers or The Return of the King because it was all so long ago. At the time we meet him in The Fellowship of the Ring he is about twice Hal's age when we meet him, because the blood of Numenor runs strong in Aragorn's veins and he has inherited a long life span. He had done nothing that he was personally ashamed of (equally true of both book andmovie Aragorn ) and although he does a lot of wandering he is not homeless, because a place at Rivendell is always waiting for him whenever he returns there. The Kingdom to which he is heir has all the resources I mentioned in a previous post (true of both movie and book Aragorn) and if he can convince them that he is their rightful king (which of course he does), he will have all those resources to aid him in defending Gondor and its allies.

Hal, on the other hand, is a refugee; he has no home. He does not appearrproud of his noble lineage, and he seems to be carrying guilty secrets about his own past acts. He seems to want a fresh start, a chance to become a better man than he has been before, but he doesn't behave as a better man. He tries to avoid a fight with the guildsmen, but he did rob one of them, which is what the fight is about. His past seems to include interludes working in a forge, a period in which he became an accomplished thief, and a time as street fighter (some of these may overlap). When he reached Numenor he doesn't see it (as Galadriel does) as a chance to gain allies to help him help his people; he hope to stay there and exploit the opportunities he thinks he sees to get ahead by exploiting his less admirable skills. At this point Hal seems to be in it solely for himself.

But let us suppose Galadriel or some set of circumstances convinces him to join her cause, rally the Southlands, and fight Sauron and the orcs? There are supposed to be five seasons, so perhaps there may be some initial successes. However, now the sigil has been identified as a map and we know the plan attached it to it, we also know that the Southlands are the future Mordor. (None of the characters know what lies in store for that region, but the location has been identified and readers and viewers know what it will become. If Hal tries to save his land and his people, that is a war he will not win. All he stands to inherit is, quite literally, dust and ashes. His fate will be very different from Aragorn's, but then, it never really resembled it anyhow.

(I'm baffled by this theory that he might become one of the Ringwraiths)

So was I baffled, at first. It seemed like people were looking for shocking theories to write articles about, were looking for a twist and hit on that one, or, knowing that some characters will have to become Nazgul, looked at the list of human characters we have so far learned will be in the series, realized that there are not many of them whose future lives we don't already know, and basically came up with two names: Halbrand and Theo. Well both of those have seemed, up until now, to be too unimportant to gift with a magic ring. But if Hal does briefly rally his people as his ancestor did ... well then he may just be important enough. And if he gets invested in their struggles, if he desperately wants to save them, and someone come along and offers him a magic ring that could assist him in doing so (he would not, of course, in those circumstances realize that the ring comes from the person he is trying to save them from, or that he would ultimately end up in thrall to Sauron) ... the idea seems a lot more plausible. I don't say that it will happen that way, but it seems so much more like it could than it did the first few times I read that he might be the Witch King.

all the dwarves are made to sound like John Rhys-Davies.

I suspect because both John Rhys-Davies and Owain Arthur (Durin IV) are Welsh, and Owain Arthur's castmates among the dwarves are trying to copy him.

Almost any accent would have upset someone, and a mishmash of Scouse, Geordie, Welsh and westcountry, with some Derbyshire and South African thrown in for good measure would have been unbelievably worse.

I agree.

If I remember correctly Theoden spoke to Merry about the Eorling tradition of the Holbytla. Something like, "For it was said that they could vanish in the twinkling of an eye, and change their voices to the piping of birds."
There was a scene in episode 3 where they did indeed all disappear in the twinkling of an eye, beneath their camouflage, so that all you saw was a field of strange lichen-like mounds.
It struck me as a perfect representation of what Theoden had described.

And the Harfoots are currently travelling through Rhovanion, which is where the Rohirrim (among others ... it's a big place) used to live. The chances their peoples would have encountered each other at some point, or at least know of each other, seem high.

The stranger.
This surely has to be Gandalf.

I think most people have at least agreed that he must be one of the maiar. If true, that still includes all the wizards (and there are articles and podcasts pushing each one of them, except Radagast, or if there is one for him I haven't seen it), Sauron (a very popular theory), all the balrogs (last night I watched a YouTube video advancing the idea that he really is the balrog we saw in one of the trailers, but I think the balrog must surely be the one they accidentally dig up in Kazad-dum/Moria), and a bunch more hinted at in the Silmarillion (the one's actually named in the Sil, they shouldn't have the rights to, I don't think). Going back to the wizards, there are so many obvious clues that he might be Gandalf, I am beginning to think Gandalf is a red herring and he will be someone else).

Overall, I'm enjoying it, in the spirit which Teresa describes as someone's vision of what we don't know and probably all imagined a bit differently.

If people can't enjoy it, or don't want to for one reason or another (Amazon has a lot of baggage going in, and lots of people would adore to see it fail), that's up to them, but I think what you have quoted above is the only way to view it for people who would get more pleasure out of liking it than spending a whole hour+ nitpicking. Since I watch most movies on TV or my Kindle, I am known to walk away if something irritates me too much, because I find nit-picking a whole show too much work.

1. I think Hal is been set up as the tortured hero. Or an tinfoil hat theory could be that he is one of the 'kings' corrupted by Sauron and the rings of power.

Definitely a tortured protagonist, and who can resist one of those? As for the other, see above. I thought as you do at first, but the ringwraith theory is looking much better than it did before. I'm not convinced, but I could be convinced.

The Stranger is definitely Gamdalf. He has always had a connection to the Hobbits and this might be an origin story.

See above.

4. Elendil looks suitably heroic.

Yes,

5. Numenor looked spectacular.

Yes, yes, yes.

fartnfar, I thought there were five Istari? Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and the two blue wizards.

There are definitely five. But as I don't think the blue wizards are mentioned in the material they have the rights to, if he is a wizard and not one of the three names in LOTR, I guess he could adopt any color.

I really didn't like the prologue. I just cannot imagine Elven children bullying each other in the undying lands. This is taking human angst and importing it into Valinor.

I don't like the prologue either and my first reaction was "elf children wouldn't act that way" but then I thought, "maybe they are her cousins, the sons of Feanor—because some of them did pretty awful things as adults. There was bullying and worse in the Undying Lands, though not perhaps when Galadriel was a child. (But maybe.)

The Elves were always filled with an otherworldly grace to me (something which I believe Jackson captured with Blanchett as Galadriel

This is more Jackson than Tolkien. It's an easy impression to pick up if one hasn't read (or remembered or followed) the appendices (I'm not being condescending here; I didn't follow them well or remember them myself when I first read LOTR), or the Silmarillion, because Tolkien didn't really describe them that much in LOTR, and it was easy for Jackson's vivid images to overlay what is fairly vague in the book trilogy.

I just don't think it was delivered anything like the authoritative and powerful prologue of the films.

I agree. Although the prologue in the films was not entirely true to the source material, either.

My other criticism (which runs on similar veins) was Galadriels killing of the Ice/Snow troll - it just isnt fitting with her character as I see it.

But how did Tolkien see her? In his early writings he established a young Galadriel as of an Amazonian disposition and a fighter. What she was by the Second Age, who can really say? In the Third Age, the little we see of book Galadriel is not the ethereal, serene being that many picked up from Jackson's depiction. Tolkien says her eyes, and Celeborn's, were keen as lances (which is a rather warlike image) and she tells the Fellowship that for many long years she and Celeborn "fought the long defeat" which again doesn't sound very peaceful.

It also doesn't help with the obvious wire work and the spinny sword flourishes (which I always hate).

I'm not a fan of these, either.

This is not to say I don't like the actress, I think she is doing a really good job, Its just she is doing a good job portraying a character that I don't recognise as Galadriel.

Yes, I think she plays the part very well.

******

Well, this is getting very, very long, and I am getting tired. So I will come back later and continue.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

So apologies for doing this in two posts, but the previous one was getting super long.

I haven't seen it, but some of the Noldor especially (but not only them) were haughty, hot-tempered and could be cruel, avaricious, deceitful etc. The impression I got from The Silmarillion was that a minority shared most human flaws, especially the ones that lent themselves to the epic.

Some of them were ghastly individuals. Among the sons of Feanor, even the best of them were driven to do awful things by the oath they took (which HareBrain has described), and the worst of them behaved with cruelty and dishonor in situations that had nothing to do with the Silmarils or their oath. Their ill-deeds tended to be on a large scale. I guess one thing you could say about them was that their faults were rather grand and splendid, rather than petty and mean. Nevertheless, they caused great suffering and incredible devastation, and often for the most selfish of motives. They could be incredibly obsessive and possessive.

As for the rest of the elves, they seemed to be rather easily lead at times, either by whoever was leading them, or by whoever was stirring them up against—a lot like humans, actually.

Mind you, this is just the elves who either stayed in Middle Earth when invited to Valinor on the Great Journey, or (especially) some of those who came back as part of the Noldor rebellion. Those who remained forever in the Undying Lands may have been perfectly angelic—although considering some of the elves they gave birth to while living in bliss, that is open to doubt.

Feanor and his followers (about a third of the Noldor) killed many of the Teleri when stealing their ships to leave Valinor, but I don't know if that's what you're referring to as the two groups never met again, so there was no actual feuding.

There would have been, since the Sindar elves had been Teleri, and if King Elu Thingol and his wife Melian (who was not actually an elf but a maia) had known about the kinslaying and some of their other deeds when the Noldor arrived in Middle Earth, things might have gone very differently and there might well have been feuding. But Galadriel and her brothers, who had been witness to some of the worst of Feanor's deeds but not part of them, kept silent for a long time—out of loyalty, one supposes (though they, too, were related to the Teleri, but also to Feanor and his sons). It's a bit puzzling, because Galadriel always disliked Feanor and positively hated him after the he and his followers killed her relatives to get the boats. She went to Middle Earth in part to thwart him at every turn ... and then, apparently, didn't.

What we have to remember is that a lot of the early writings were neither finished nor polished, and can be full of contradictions and plot holes.

Didn't Gandalf arrive by ship at the Grey Havens after the rings had been forged, and Cirdan gave him the ring he held?

Yes, but Gandalf wasn't so much an actual person as a persona assumed for the task by Olorin the maia. The maia were all spirits, but they could incarnate themselves in any form they chose (Although it confused them for a time when they switched from spirit to flesh, but not, apparently so much when they shape-shifted from one fleshly form to another. At least, in the First Age, when Sauron was turning into wolves and things, it didn't cause him a problem.) And many of the maia would incarnate and drop by Middle Earth when they had a message to bring or a task to accomplish. So it would not be right within the lore for Gandalf to turn up in the Second Age, but possible for Olorin to pay a visit.

The thing that can be hard to remember is that while Tolkien wrote down so many, many tales and details about Middle Earth, there was also so very much that he left out. Some of that is not important, but some of it does, as I said, leave plot holes, and some of it leaves intriguing gaps which he originally thought other writers and artists would fill in. He changed his mind about that, but it doesn't seem that he did so because he disliked the idea so much as because he thought it was conceited to expect others to want to contribute to his mythology. (He was certainly wrong about that!)

I've not seen the Jackson film version, but in the book the Mirkwood elves seem anything but.

I agree that they come across as unpleasant and unhelpful. Travellers lost in the wood and in serious trouble, and instead of offering them aid, the elves lock them up. Then later, at the Lonely Mountain they only decided to side with the dwarves because enemies they hated more turned up in vast numbers.

 

[joejoejoejoe]

Really sorry. Hoped LOTR would be better but I find it sorely lacking in dialogue and casting. While some characters are interesting, others are just a distraction bordering on annoying. Really too bad.

As for She Hulk as per the above post, it has been 4 episodes and she hasn't fought a villain yet or at least gone on a rampage of her own. I am checking out on this series --4 strikes and it is out.

 

[farntfar]

I agree that they come across as unpleasant and unhelpful. Travellers lost in the wood and in serious trouble, and instead of offering them aid, the elves lock them up. Then later, at the Lonely Mountain they only decided to side with the dwarves because enemies they hated more turned up in vast numbers.

Don't forget that the elves of Mirkwood are descriibed as Green Elves. IE the ones who not only refused the trip to Valinor, but also never even crossed the Misty Mountains into Beleriand. (See the appendices of the Silmarillion.) So they wouldn't have the sophistication or training of the Calaquendi.
Legolas was certainly not a Noldo. Gandalf called him Legolas the Green (or at least Legolas Greenleaf which I assume meant the same.)
This also points out that the lake of Cuivienen, where the elves first awoke was far to the east, presumably much further east than Mordor.

 

[ctg]

estimated torrent download samples

"House of the Dragon" and "The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power" are two completely different TV series. However, their near-simultaneous premieres have tempted people to draw comparisons. While we can't say which series is better, the download numbers show that torrenting pirates clearly favor the Game of Thrones prequel.

With the release of HBO’s “House of the Dragon” and Amazon’s “The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power,” two major fantasy series premiered last month.

The former was an instant success on pirate sites where, in true Game of Thrones spirit, it was leaked before the official premiere.

While both series are hard to compare, the media has pitted them against each other to see which one performs best. Does “The Rings of Power” dwarf “House of the Dragon” or vice versa?

In terms of user ratings, the Game of Thrones prequel wins by a landslide but official viewer statistics are harder to come by. According to Variety, the Dragons now average 29 million viewers per episode. Amazon hasn’t released much data on its billion-dollar production but previously said that the Rings premiere drew a 25 million audience.

"House of the Dragon" Crushes "The Rings of Power" on Pirate Sites * TorrentFreak

"House of the Dragon" and "The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power" are two completely different TV series but pirates favor the former.

torrentfreak.com

This is a very strong indicator on how the internet, thus the world has taken this series. I don't know more honest statistics than this

 

[Elckerlyc]

Except that the two series are completely different stories. And except that everyone compares the The Rings of Power with Tolkiens' legacy, a huge disadvantage House of Dragons doesn't have. None of what makes HoD so loved by its viewers, can or will you ever find in Tolkiens' work. Peoples preferences doesn't necessarily say anything about quality of content.
Also, it isn't a competition.
And finally, I care sh*t about what the internet, or the world, seems attracted to.

 

[ctg]

Also, it isn't a competition.

I disagree, because it was launched to compete HBO's product. The news articles before the launch says likewise. It is competing, and the public is getting their voice through, no matter what the media corporations want them to believe. There's an awful lot of PR play going in the background, as the AMZ doesn't want this to flop.

By all means, and thanks to your work, and other writers comments they have something that they can salvage. But like it has been with the other series, it is all in their hands and the decision ultimately is going to be a business decision, no matter what the fans and creators says.

 

[HareBrain]

This is a very strong indicator on how the internet, thus the world has taken this series. I don't know more honest statistics than this

I'm not so sure. Don't a lot of people get Prime mostly for free delivery? Those people aren't going to pirate LOTR from Torrent sites because they'll have free access anyway. But if people are happy to pirate, they won't have joined HBO for any reason.

 

[ctg]

I'm not so sure. Don't a lot of people get Prime mostly for free delivery?

The statistics correlate strongly with the popularity, and it has been doing so for a number of years. I'm not sure that we have enough of data to compare a decade or two. Also because of the Prime numbers are "classified corpo info," we have had to rely on the other sites, like the Nielsen's data, or the ones that measure smart TV metrics data.

All of them indicating a downward trend in the popularity.

 

[farntfar]

An alternative explanation is that HOD watchers are just more dishonest, and therefore ready to download pirate episodes than ROP watchers.
Just joking, but trying to point out that you can read anything you like into this sort of data.

Furthermore what do the choice of brown and blue lines suggest????

 

[ctg]

An alternative explanation is that HOD watchers are just more dishonest, and therefore ready to download pirate episodes than ROP watchers.

Why that would be the case?

 

[farntfar]

I'm only joking ctg.
There can be no reason to suggest that HOD viewers are more dishonest. I'm just playing with the statistics presented.
You could start with the idea that there are the same number of viewers of each program, but HOD viewers do more downloading and you would arrive at the same graph.
Another possibility is that their hard drives are of poorer quality and they find they have to download many times if they want to watch each episode more than once.
Occam's razor points to the idea that there are more HOD viewers, but it isn't necessarily true.
I'm just fooling about. Please don't take any of this seriously, or think that I honestly believe HOD viewers to be more dishonest.

 

[SilentRoamer]

@ctg Don't trust @farntfar

He's a filthy HoD viewer and everyone knows HoD viewers are dishonest.

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

Those are interesting numbers @ctg and I believe they do say something, but there are a lot of variables to take into account before one can say they prove anything.

For instance I'd venture that House of the Dragon is at an advantage because it's still able to ride the wave created by GoT, which may have diminished somewhat over the last 5 years but has yet to completely crash. GoT is still extremely popular: new editions of the books are released twice a year at least, fans fan its flame online whenever GRR Martin farts an update about the next book on his blog, high-end collectibles are a regular sight in most shops and... the TV series has earned a deserved reputation as a well-produced show that offers complex storylines appealing to a wide audience outside of the, well, nerdier Medieval Fantasy fanbase. Something that Rings of Power, as a brand new venture from showrunners who have everything to prove, has not yet earned.

Martin's brand of grim-dark, adult-oriented Fantasy has become the norm in recent years to cast a long shadow over Tolkien's universe, which looks a little more traditional, not to say outdated, to people who discover the genre today. The show probably suffers a bit from We-Have-Elves-With-Pointy-Ears syndrome. In that regard it may have been a mistake on the showrunner's part to advertise their series as an adaptation of Tolkien's works as opposed to a spiritual continuation of Peter Jackson's trilogy... which not only would have been more accurate if we're being honest, but also probably wouldn't have ostracized so many of Tolkien's purists and may have appealed to more casual viewers who enjoyed Jackson's films because they like (gross generalization incoming) huge battle scenes with hordes of disfigured orcs decapitated by gruff rangers (what I picture when I think of Jackson's trilogy), but care not one bit for (gross generalization incoming) halflings digesting a stew while smoking pipes and singing (what I picture when I think of Tolkien's books). On the other hand the more grounded politics and subtle or wannabe subtle machinations of House of the Dragon might do the trick for them.

Just to be crystal clear: I'm not implying that there is no overlap in the fanbases of both shows, there is. I'm saying that outside of the Medieval Fantasy fanbase, I believe - based solely on interactions within my social circle and with zero numbers to back it up - that House of the Dragon is at a significant advantage when it comes to drawing in large numbers.