Is science-fantasy just one massive parody of sci-fi and fantasy?

P.K.Acredon

Just a memer who went too far...
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I've noticed, in more recent stories, that sci-fi and fantasy are merged together unlike the classic stories having genres which were strictly embedded in either sci-fi or fantasy. Yet in modern times, every new thing seems more focus on just characters rather than the world itself. I understand that character is the most important aspect of stories. Which is why I believe a story's world should be more focused on what kind of place it is to develop a certain type of character that could be relatable depending on the reader's choice. I've noticed nowadays in cartoons, video games, and especially superhero comic books/movies, the world merely feels like a playground for writers to mess around with rather than it being immersive. Sure, the characters in those stories are very well done, its just the world seems so random. As if the world is a character itself and makes fun of itself be deconstructing itself all the time. As if it is symbolically saying: "Am I run buy science or magic? Who cares?! I'm SO full of personality!"
There's nothing wrong with that. Its just stories subconsciously feel the same and therefore don't really appeal that much due to a lack of identity with the exception of everything has some weird personality. If every story is just some parody with weird personality, then stories have no variety.
And no, this is not a debate on whether science and magic is the same or different, its a debate on the different nature of stories and how that nature can be useful for developing a stories identity such as fantasy or sci-fi. So please resist that impulsive urge to say: "Science is just magic we don't understand."
 
Genres are marketing categories. They let the know readers what to expect when they pick up a book. Cliches and tropes emerge from foundational texts and define genres. It's always been this way since Sci-fi emerged as a category of fiction. It's impossible to avoid, as soon as someone ploughs a new furrow then other writers will be inspired and follow that path.

Science-fantasy is a specific genre that has its roots in space opera like Flash Gordon, John Carter of Mars and so on. In fact, going back to sci-fi from the 1930's to the 60's, much of it was "science as magic", with notable exceptions like Clarke and so on.

Characters are always the focus of stories, because we're human and we look for stories about humans, through a human lens - even if the character is an alien.

Personality IS variety.
 
Genres are marketing categories. They let the know readers what to expect when they pick up a book. Cliches and tropes emerge from foundational texts and define genres. It's always been this way since Sci-fi emerged as a category of fiction. It's impossible to avoid, as soon as someone ploughs a new furrow then other writers will be inspired and follow that path.

Science-fantasy is a specific genre that has its roots in space opera like Flash Gordon, John Carter of Mars and so on. In fact, going back to sci-fi from the 1930's to the 60's, much of it was "science as magic", with notable exceptions like Clarke and so on.

Characters are always the focus of stories, because we're human and we look for stories about humans, through a human lens - even if the character is an alien.

Personality IS variety.

And they're fun and entertaining. :cool:
 
Genres are marketing categories. They let the know readers what to expect when they pick up a book. Cliches and tropes emerge from foundational texts and define genres. It's always been this way since Sci-fi emerged as a category of fiction. It's impossible to avoid, as soon as someone ploughs a new furrow then other writers will be inspired and follow that path.

Science-fantasy is a specific genre that has its roots in space opera like Flash Gordon, John Carter of Mars and so on. In fact, going back to sci-fi from the 1930's to the 60's, much of it was "science as magic", with notable exceptions like Clarke and so on.

Characters are always the focus of stories, because we're human and we look for stories about humans, through a human lens - even if the character is an alien.

Personality IS variety.
Everything you said I understand. If I had a nickel for every time someone said those things to me I would be a millionaire. However, those things you've mentioned serves my point. People are always saying that genres are for marketing to a certain audience and characters are supposed to be relatable so the audience will connect them. I heard it many times. And my answer is always: "True. That's what a story is from the start. But it doesn't have to only be that way." Something that the best stories have in common is being itself rather than a mere commodity that is only useful to be consumed be an audience member. And that's what most modern stories seem to ONLY be focused on. What genre people will like and then just have some characters they can relate too. Therefore there's no need to put much effort in the world because this story is nothing more than entertainment toward an audience. It has no identity. Its bound to whatever the audience wants.
When I watched Dune this month, I was thinking: "Wow! I haven't watch a movie like that in a long time." That is because Dune was more than just a story that picked a random genre that the mass audience would like. It chose to be sci-fi because that would give it its identity. That would help its world to be more immersive. Lord of the Rings would not have worked if it was Sci-fi. And that's okay. Those kinds of stories stand on their own with their own identities. It seems the mass audience would rather see a jumbled up genre like the superhero movies rather than something that doesn't appeal to them because of its chosen identity. When a story chooses a personality of an audience to represent, it is bound to that audiences entrainment. When a story choses a world for its identity, its more free to be itself and be a more immersive experience.
Which leads lastly to why I respectfully disagree with your statement: "Personality IS variety." Think about it, if there were two books/movies that both had sci-fi and fantasy elements, they would basically be the same story. But if the two movies were a fantasy and sci-fi story. There are two different movies unlike that seemingly collective hivemind of clones of sci-fi/fantasy stories.
Identity is variety.
 
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Can you give us some examples of “ recent stories” published in “modern times” to support your assertions?
 
Everything you said I understand. If I had a nickel for every time someone said those things to me I would be a millionaire. However, those things you've mentioned serves my point. People are always saying that genres are for marketing to a certain audience and characters are supposed to be relatable so the audience will connect them. I heard it many times. And my answer is always: "True. That's what a story is from the start. But it doesn't have to only be that way." Something that the best stories have in common is being itself rather than a mere commodity that is only useful to be consumed be an audience member. And that's what most modern stories seem to ONLY be focused on. What genre people will like and then just have some characters they can relate too. Therefore there's no need to put much effort in the world because this story is nothing more than entertainment toward an audience. It has no identity. Its bound to whatever the audience wants.
When I watched Dune this month, I was thinking: "Wow! I haven't watch a movie like that in a long time." That is because Dune was more than just a story that picked a random genre that the mass audience would like. It chose to be sci-fi because that would give it its identity. That would help its world to be more immersive. Lord of the Rings would not have worked if it was Sci-fi. And that's okay. Those kinds of stories stand on their own with their own identities. It seems the mass audience would rather see a jumbled up genre like the superhero movies rather than something that doesn't appeal to them because of its chosen identity. When a story chooses a personality of an audience to represent, it is bound to that audiences entrainment. When a story choses a world for its identity, its more free to be itself and be a more immersive experience.
Which leads lastly to why I respectfully disagree with your statement: "Personality IS variety." Think about it, if there were two books/movies that both and sci-fi and fantasy elements, they would basically be the same story. But if the two movies that were a fantasy and sci-fi story. There are two different movies unlike that seemingly collective hivemind of clones of sci-fi/fantasy stories.
Identity is variety.

Have you ever read anything by Abraham Merritt , Karl Edward Wagner or Gardner Fox ?
 
And that's what most modern stories seem to ONLY be focused on. What genre people will like and then just have some characters they can relate too. Therefore there's no need to put much effort in the world because this story is nothing more than entertainment toward an audience. It has no identity. Its bound to whatever the audience wants.

Have you thought that maybe the marketability of a book affects how likely you are to come across it. The less a book conforms to a genre, the harder it is for a publisher to market it and therefore the harder it is to find. Even algorithms are geared up to recommending something similar to something you already like, rather than something novel.

The types of innovative fiction that tends to get through is often literary works such as Murakami, Cixin Liu, etc. You need to find the spaces and marketing outlets that push literary fiction if that's your interest.

When I watched Dune this month, I was thinking: "Wow! I haven't watch a movie like that in a long time." That is because Dune was more than just a story that picked a random genre that the mass audience would like. It chose to be sci-fi because that would give it its identity. That would help its world to be more immersive. Lord of the Rings would not have worked if it was Sci-fi. And that's okay. Those kinds of stories stand on their own with their own identities. It seems the mass audience would rather see a jumbled up genre like the superhero movies rather than something that doesn't appeal to them because of its chosen identity. When a story chooses a personality of an audience to represent, it is bound to that audiences entrainment. When a story choses a world for its identity, its more free to be itself and be a more immersive experience.
Which leads lastly to why I respectfully disagree with your statement: "Personality IS variety." Think about it, if there were two books/movies that both had sci-fi and fantasy elements, they would basically be the same story. But if the two movies were a fantasy and sci-fi story. There are two different movies unlike that seemingly collective hivemind of clones of sci-fi/fantasy stories.
Identity is variety.

Why is personality, variety? Look at the dictionary definition: "the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character" - keyword is distinctive. We often say things or people that conform to mass-market corporate standards have no personality. With personality we take individual traits in combination and these add up to a unique entity.

Identity isn't variety, rather it does the opposite of personality. Identity is about belonging and identifying - i.e. reducing a unique combination of traits into categories so that we can identify them and make assumptions about them. Assigning something an identity is reducing and limiting it to something that is easily definable. Identities help other people to make decisions about the things grouped together. You see this in marketing when marketers talk about identifying certain audience groups. If we identify someone we reference surface characteristics - tall, wide, thin, short, black, white, blonde, brown etc. When we talk about our identity, we are often talking about fitting in with a group of some kind, even if those identity markers are combined to form an identity matrix - they are saying "where do I belong" rather than "who am I?"

You seem to be saying that world building is more interesting than plot or character. That's fine if that's your thing.

I have a friend who used to write fighting fantasy books, and he decries world building as mere geekery. These are articles he's posted against worldbuilding as the bench mark of fiction:

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Would-be writers of fantasy novels see the example of Tolkien and imagine writing a book is a lot like playing “The Sims” — you just build a world, drop some people in it, and see what happens. That just doesn’t work. You might object, “But some authors don’t know how their plot will end!” That’s true, but such authors create rich characters first. You can have a plot-driven story or you can have a character-driven story, but you can’t have a world-driven story. Look at fantasy authors who aren’t Tolkien, and one thing you’ll notice is that maps tend to be drawn by fans, or retconned after the fact. First, comes the story, then they map the world around the story.


In the article Fallen London creator Alexis Kennedy quotes Tolkien's own opinions on world building, which are character-first, rather than world first.

The wider point is why, nowadays, are there not more all encompassing world creations, possibly because creating them to the level of Tolkien takes decades, requires the linguistic skill of an oxford Don and most writers don't have lucrative jobs that give them the economic support to write 500,000 word trilogies. Today's market cannot support this level of indulgence.
 
Science-Fantasy is a fairly old and popular thing. It's not some modern invention. Heinlen wrote it (Magic, Inc) Poul Anderson wrote it (Operation Chaos); older than them too if you count David Lindsay's Voyage to Arcturus. It's pretty much what Star Wars is. See also Warhammer 40k, the Morgaine Cycle, Pern, Steampunk in general, plenty of 2000AD comics, hell, a lot of superhero comics in general. People go for it because it's what they know, and there's still a ton of stories out there that don't use it.



I also find it amusing that a FF author would rail against Worldbuilding as that's part of a line that literally sold a book full of its Worldbuilding. The idea that one needs to be Tolkien to create an immersive world is frankly rot too.
 
sufficient advanced science is indistinguishible from magic... that said, who gives a penny? either you like the book and the world it describes or you don't. does it really matters the genre? how about urban fantasy, should we just stop reading it because is too much like reality?
 
To me not a parody as such just an aspect of the story that the author perhaps has lost focus on. I am disappointed that a lot of modern (21st C.) Sc-Fi concentrates too much on the characters with trivial interactions leaving out any hard stuff and thus diluting the genre (maybe the publishers is hard put to decide where to place it). I also find they introduce some technology which would have moved on for the period of the novel (I guess that makes it a parody of sorts if it was intentional). I get most of my books from kindle but don't think that's the reason unless the price reflects the quality!

Worldbuilding is just like character building where this post I found interesting. Where AI is involved the 'personality' in the world needs attention. Has anyone defined the two?
 
On Worldbuilding , sometime more is less. Give the readers just the essential and let their imaginations fill in the rest .
 
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I also find it amusing that a FF author would rail against Worldbuilding as that's part of a line that literally sold a book full of its Worldbuilding.

To be fair, he was writing within the context of the release of Dune. He wasn't a fan and regards the series as world building over character (I don't agree on that point, I think Dune has a compelling story and characters, as well as incredible world building - same as Tolkien). The wider point was that he feels excess world building is geekery and should take a back seat to character within fiction.

Worldbuilding in RPG's is different in the respect that worlds are frameworks for DM's / players to build narratives within, so they don't have to do all that work in advance. Titan and out of the pit are written with that in mind (and to satisfy geeks).

The idea that one needs to be Tolkien to create an immersive world is frankly rot too.

That isn't quite what I'm saying. I'm saying that you need a substantial amount of time and enough money to support you if you are a professional author that wants to worldbuild to the extent and authenticity of Tolkien (multiple fully realised conlangs / substantial lore etc). That extent being beyond necessary for immersion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but OP seems to want to read a fully realised world in which characters are placed, and where the systems of that world unfurl and the characters are flotsam and jetsam of those systemic processes. There's nothing wrong with that, but it requires substantial upfront investment before you get to the actual writing part. It's this emphasis on investment in creating a fully realised world over and above creating a character centred plot that OP seems to be arguing for, and which they says SF doesn't do enough.
 
Science-Fantasy. There is something oxymoronic about the term.
I tend to agree with that in principle but every author gets to decide his/her own objective and can vary in success.

Jules Verne criticized H G Wells. Verne was more precise in engineering and Wells was more socially conscious. Now we are in a better position to destroy ourselves with Wells' "atomic bombs". But some how society has to decide how to cope with this technology.

Looking back the adults should have started recommending meaningful SF to kids in the 60s instead of Catcher in the Rye. Now lots of authors are writing shallow garbage for a buck.

Our educators cannot suggest something as simple as mandatory accounting in the schools and the nitwit economists cannot talk about the depreciation of the consumer trash that is manufactured.

Try The Space Merchants by Frederick Pohl from the 1950s.
 

There was no Pacific Garbage Patch in the 1950s.
 
I suspect that he is crappy at world building.
Actually, he's pretty good. I've read Nova Swing, and a couple of other books by M John Harrison, and they've all been both pretty good, and pretty good at worldbuilding. I think that good writers tend to be good world-builders. It's not a cause-and-effect relationship, but there's definite correlation there.

I think he's making a couple of interesting points, too. The first is that it's very, very easy to get so into the world-building that you neglect (or never get to) the story. I understand this because I absolutely love the whole worldbuilding sandbox, and it can be a massive distraction. My sister-in-law's father, for example, has been working on a series for over a decade, and has very little to show for it - perhaps because of the time he spent on world-building rather than actual writing. :unsure:

The other point is that world-building is essentially enforcing a rulebook. The very act of defining a world limits possibilities - every decision you make cuts off potential avenues for the story to progress along. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is a restrictive thing. For pantsers like myself (more so than plotters) the world-building is making yourself a cage for the story. Which, again, is not necessarily a bad thing, just a thing. :)
 

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