Past tenses

[Phyrebrat]

Hello.

This is the kind of question I'd normally ask Her Hon. by PM but I figured it might be of use to others -- or I might just be a lemon, and everyone knows it already. My experience of grammar and tenses was only taught to me in French, never English. I was the first cohort of GCSEs in 1988 and my (grammar!) school (the incredibly gayly-named Bournemouth School for Boys )chose to combine English into one qualification so we got a grade for Lang and a number for Lit; eg: A3, C4 etc... Consequently I struggle with the rules and names of tenses.

Anyway, my question is re words like swum/swam and sunk/sank.

I'm not sure which one to use and have been going kind of by intuition/sound. I feel like swam is in the past, but actively 'doing' swimming, and swum is in the past with the swimming having been 'done'. Similarly, sunk would be, say, an item that has already got submerged, whereas sank, is reporting its action of sinking in the past.

Am I right? I've been going from Strunk and White for years, but realised recently that is American English so I have to be careful my WIPs aren't full of US and UK English.

Ta

 

[Victoria Silverwolf]

These are actually difficult words to use correctly. It probably doesn't help at all to point out that both "swum" and "sunk" are the past participles of their root verbs ("swim" and "sink.") Here are some discussions of their proper use.

Dipping into 'Swum' vs. 'Swam'

Which is the correct past participle?

www.merriam-webster.com

Sank or Sunk – What’s the Difference? - Writing Explained

Sink sank sunk grammar. What is the difference between these tenses? Learn how to use the past tense of sink and past participle for sink.

writingexplained.org

As a rule of thumb, both "swum" and "sunk" require "had" or "have."

Examples:

We swam for three hours.

We had swum for three hours.

The ship sank quickly.

The ship had sunk quickly.

I hope this helps with a tricky issue!

 

[Phyrebrat]

Thanks Victoria- I’ve pasted your comments into my Scrivener notes and will read the articles tomorrow (it’s 3.45 am here and I’ve just got done watching a chilling documentary on Netflix about Dennis Nilsen).

 

[The Judge]

Now, you see, by not PMing me with the question you've denied me a chance to show my brilliance again by giving the perfect answer!

Anyhow, basically you were right, as Victoria has made clear -- "swam" is the simple past tense as you noted, while "swum" is further back in time as the perfect past (what used to be called the pluperfect), and the same for "sank" and "sunk". (Personally, though, I'd always try and use the simple past as for me the "u" sounds feel wrong even though they're correct, like using the US "snuck" instead of the correct UK English "sneaked".)

Just in case I've misinterpreted your "sunk would be, say, an item that has already got submerged" -- if you mean eg "The Carpathia arrived long after the Titanic had sunk" then that's right, but beware using "sunk" to describe the item, as in that case you need the adjective which is "sunken" as in "sunken treasure".

 

[Ursa major]

Anyway, my question is re words like swum/swam and sunk/sank.

I'm not sure which one to use and have been going kind of by intuition/sound. I feel like swam is in the past, but actively 'doing' swimming, and swum is in the past with the swimming having been 'done'. Similarly, sunk would be, say, an item that has already got submerged, whereas sank, is reporting its action of sinking in the past.

There are a couple of Wikipedia articles (or parts thereof) that may be of more general help:

• Regular and irregular verbs/By language/English
• English irregular verbs, including:
  
  • a list of 204 irregular verbs that are commonly used in standard modern English

 

[Jo Zebedee]

It makes my head hurt, precious

 

[Mouse]

"Swimmed" and "Drownded". You're welcome.

 

[HareBrain]

My brain has trouble understanding why swim/swam/swum and sink/sank/sunk but not spin/span/spun. There is no "span" (except in a bridge**).

English is BS.

**I looked it up and apparently it's also an archaic past tense of spin. Why was it dropped? No one consulted me!

 

[Jo Zebedee]

My brain has trouble understanding why swim/swam/swum and sink/sank/sunk but not spin/span/spun. There is no "span" (except in a bridge**).

English is BS.

**I looked it up and apparently it's also an archaic past tense of spin. Why was it dropped? No one consulted me!

I use span - as in 'he span around' - but, you know, my grasp of normal English is a tad eclectic at the best of times. Her Honour does many winches

 

[Ursa major]

Her Honour does many winches

Presumably out of conviction (i.e. without the aid of Kickstarter)....

English is BS

Unfortunately, there is no British Standard for English, particularly in those places to where it was exported (and/or transported...).

 

[Mouse]

I use span.

I'd use span, too. She spins. She was spun. She span around.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I'd use span, too. She spins. She was spun. She span around.

that's cos we has proper words, us

 

[The Judge]

My brain has trouble understanding why swim/swam/swum and sink/sank/sunk but not spin/span/spun. There is no "span" (except in a bridge**).

English is BS.

**I looked it up and apparently it's also an archaic past tense of spin. Why was it dropped? No one consulted me!

I use it all the time, and since I'm pretty archaic myself I feel entitled to continue using it! (I do change it if I'm writing something modern, but how often is that? So it often stays in my stories, too!)

 

[chrispenycate]

I'venoticed that 'weaved' is replacing I weave - Iwove - I have woven, at least in American English. Still, I still use the subjunctive mood, and abhore split infinitives, so I should probably just sut up andmarvel at the mutation.

 

[Phyrebrat]

I often see lighted a candle instead of lit.

It’s a minefield. Admiral Ackbar would have something to say about English!

 

[Dave]

I'm not a grammar expert at all. Like @Phyrebrat we did very little grammar in my own school days, and I so struggled with my children's homework when the National Literary Strategy was launched in the early 1990's (I was also a school governor at that time and had to help implement it in the school! That was a learning curve.)

All I wanted to add, and this may apply to Chris as his family is from the North East too, is that there are regional differences in the use of verb tenses. So, when you read somewhere, as @HareBrain did, that a particular tense is now archaic, it may still be in current use in the local accent of some part of the UK. Alternatively, another verb tense may be archaic in one accent, but still commonly used elsewhere. That's why @Mouse can say she still hears "Swum" used in Devon. Scots too is like a different language itself.

 

[Phyrebrat]

That's why @Mouse can say she still hears "Swum" used in Devon. Scots too is like a different language itself.

Exactly, and why when someone is telling a story of an night out at a restaurant they might start it, 'I was sat at the end of the table' to mean where the waiter seated them, as opposed to simply describing where they sat.

I'm trying to think of some other Geordie-isms that would violate the grammar but I can't think off the top of me bonce, like.

I do find myself screaming, 'divvent dunshus' a lot on the Tube.

 

[Danny McG]

I get more confused with hung and hang and hanged.

I got a decades old memory of being taught that one of them only applies to people being executed (as opposed to a side of beef in a meat packing plant) but I can never remember which one to use

 

[The Judge]

The beef is hung, the man is hanged.

I've never seen a mnemonic for it, but perhaps remember that unhung beef is tasteless, while a hanged man is (was!) angry.

 

[Victoria Silverwolf]

***resists temptation to say something about a hung man***