National Library of New Zealand discarding books

[AnyaKimlin]

History and archeology would be more boring if the Library of Alexandria hadn’t burned down (as an example)? Really?

Definitely - part of the fun of history is what we don't know. Also to be honest what we discover is usually more reliable than what we are told. Historians would have nothing to do if everything had been kept.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Not quite the same - I suspect she's talking about shards of Iron Age pottery rather than single-copy literature.

I was talking about the gaps in history I mean as a story writer they are also the best. I could write a story about William Wallace and Andrew of Moray as children. There is such little history available that I can incorporate my theories and ideas about why there is such little history.

 

[hitmouse]

Historians would have nothing to do if everything had been kept.

This demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature and practice of academic historians.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

This demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature and practice of academic historians.

I guess I wasted all that time hanging out with them whilst I did my degree and my bits of credits (and non credits) make me chopped liver. What I mean is they wouldn't have as much fun whilst they were coming up with their theories, ideas and work. Part of the fun is finding new ideas, coming up with them, exploring. If all the information is in front of you immediately the interpretation becomes more mundane and doesn't move or change in quite the same way.

 

[hitmouse]

I guess I wasted all that time hanging out with them whilst I did my degree and my bits of credits (and non credits) make me chopped liver. What I mean is they wouldn't have as much fun whilst they were coming up with their theories, ideas and work. Part of the fun is finding new ideas, coming up with them, exploring. If all the information is in front of you immediately the interpretation becomes more mundane and doesn't move or change in quite the same way.

Apologies if I came over a bit strong there.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Apologies if I came over a bit strong there.

it's OK I know it's controversial.

The more information we have kept in a neat library the less of the search for people and the past that there is to do. It becomes more about the thought processes and a big part of the physical process disappears. Without the need to search for those answers a lot of history gets missed and doesn't get discussed the same.

Even in a massive library it will be a skewed idea of the past but I notice with periods where we have more information, that historians ask less questions and accept what they have more. They take longer for new understandings and ideas to come about. That can kind of stagnate humanity in a way. Propaganda is powerful stuff that we don't always realise we are taking in.

 

[CupofJoe]

A month or so, there was the piece on the radio about an archive project in Austria[?] where they are making hard copies of books and other information onto crystal sheets because these will be readable long after the current digital technologies die.
That is my issue with the move to digital. It has to stay current with the existing technology. Not everything can be kept like that, but print it in a book, on good paper, keep it somewhere safe and dry and you don't have to worry too much about making a new copy for 500[?] years. But what do you choose to save?
[There was a historian on the radio this morning asking people that keep a diary to put in to it how they greet people as that sort of information rarely recorded officially]

 

[Danny McG]

They're only old books, they must be crap if nobody bothers to read them - burn them all.

 

[Artoriarius]

I’m not sure how I feel about this… I guess it depends to some extent on who’s making the decision, but the current cancel culture would not extend to libraries I would hope, which should be the last bastion of free-speech.

I am working at a children’s library, so I can’t really spread works that say, “Hating others is good! The world is conspiring against you, and selfishness is awesome!” It’s not cancel culture—it’s just... I’m not in the business of teaching kids to hate, that’s all, and I’m not going to act as a platform for the sort of thing where the only “virtue” of it is that it’s not actually illegal to say it.

 

[Bick]

I am working at a children’s library, so I can’t really spread works that say, “Hating others is good! The world is conspiring against you, and selfishness is awesome!” It’s not cancel culture—it’s just... I’m not in the business of teaching kids to hate, that’s all, and I’m not going to act as a platform for the sort of thing where the only “virtue” of it is that it’s not actually illegal to say it.

Okay - we weren't discussing children's libraries, where I doubt they'd be a lot of interest in Mein Kampf anyway, we are talking about libraries. But honestly, how many children's books promote hate and selfishness? Is this a genuine problem, or a hypothetical?

 

[Dave]

Just to play the Devil's advocate here, I have a couple of books that came from old libraries. Now if they hadn't got rid of them, I wouldn't have been able to obtain them. They are out of print and they are big, hefty tomes. So, it's only because of libraries that so many copies of them were ever printed and kept, and only because those libraries got rid of them that individuals like me were able to get hold of them.

I understand "why" libraries are down-sizing. Floor space costs money, both in the cost of the shelving and the building itself, but also the maintenance, cleaning, lighting and heating, and the security. So, if the the books are available digitally, then they think why do we need them. Libraries are not historical archives.

Except that many libraries are indeed historical archives. Public libraries and local history archives have been stuck together in the same buildings, with the same staff. The same qualified staff, historians and librarians have been made redundant and replaced with counter assistants with no knowledge. It is easy to see why such poor decisions can be made and there is no one to say it's wrong. Book burning or book destruction is always bad, wrong-headed, or even just plain wrong.

It isn't just books either. I heard of a library that held ancient title deeds (the kind that came in two matching parts for buyer and seller) who threw away one half because, well, it was identical to the other half wasn't it?

 

[Bick]

I heard of a library that held ancient title deeds (the kind that came in two matching parts for buyer and seller) who threw away one half because, well, it was identical to the other half wasn't it?

Hmm, yes. As Harlan Ellison once said, "The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity".

 

[AltThinking]

Disappointing that they just dump the books. Local Libraries where I used to live had fits of "not Politically Correct" & got rid of all books to do with war, guns, military vehicles etc. Luckily they gave them to the Salvation Army to sell off at a few dollars per book. I got all bar two books I was interested in. One (big) book sold for $10.oo but was worth over $100.oo on the 2nd hand market !

I HATE reading long texts on screen - very much prefer a paper book in my hand.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Okay - we weren't discussing children's libraries, where I doubt they'd be a lot of interest in Mein Kampf anyway, we are talking about libraries. But honestly, how many children's books promote hate and selfishness? Is this a genuine problem, or a hypothetical?

Rereading some of my favourites as an adult I think there are quite a few that promote racism, misogyny etc

The Hardy Boys really shocked me with its misogyny. There are other books written at the same time that are much better and promote more positive treatment of women.

 

[Artoriarius]

Okay - we weren't discussing children's libraries, where I doubt they'd be a lot of interest in Mein Kampf anyway, we are talking about libraries. But honestly, how many children's books promote hate and selfishness? Is this a genuine problem, or a hypothetical?

Firstly, my current workplace is a children’s library; but any library where I work at, I would expect the collection to be of benefit to the community, not a detriment. My first duty as a librarian is to the truth; to spread wisdom to the community, and that means that if somebody writes a book supporting lies and vice, I am not remotely obligated to stock that book in my collection, just because of free speech. They have the right to say it; they do not have the right to demand I give them a platform.

Second, a short list of some books which teach terrible lessons:
Babar the Elephant: Native cultures need to be changed to be more like civilised cultures.
The Clique: Being a bully is great and has no downsides whatsoever.
The Courtship of Princess Leia: Abducting someone you claim to love is romantic, not horrifying.
Feminist Fairy Tales: Men are just completely, totally awful, and women need to be in charge of everything—men should have no rights whatsoever. Also, we need to revert to a more primitive lifestyle, because something something men are awful.
Growing Around: It’s okay to be a complete and utter brat and treat people like dirt; so long as you give a half-hearted apology, you don’t even need to change your behaviour.
The Mists of Avalon: Pedophilia is A-OK! So is incest! Everything would be better if we just grubbed in the dirt, ate roots, and ceremonially murdered people just because our master race says so.
Ship It: Your favourite show josses your headcanon? Throw a temper tantrum and cause a scene, that’ll get them to bow down to you!
The Sword of Truth: Objectivism is awesome! Caring about others just hurts them, really.
Twilight: Humans suck, and vampires are right to kill them, because they’re physically better. Stalking is romantic, not creepy.
The Young Investigator’s Guide to Ancient Aliens: Historians and scientists are lying to you because they’re evil. The government is conspiring against you, and the only people you can trust are the people who disagree with them.

The Jesuits have a saying: “Give me the child, and I will give you the man.” It would be the height of irresponsibility to not consider carefully what lessons are being taught to the children, and what sort of person we want them to grow into.

 

[Dave]

Just a reminder, please, that we don't discuss politics and social politics on these forums. This thread was about the National Library of New Zealand no longer stocking overseas books that were available elsewhere. The linked newspaper report made no mention that, either the reason, or the the selection criteria was anything other than concerning "off-shore" books.

In his 1953 novel “The Go-Between,” L.P. Hartley wrote, “The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.” Like the erection of public statues, literature reflects the times in which it was written. We aren't going to discuss those differences here. Let's move on now.

As regards The Hardy Boys, many book series like those were written by a circle of several different authors, and the quality control was less important than the volume.

 

[Artoriarius]

Just a reminder, please, that we don't discuss politics and social politics on these forums. This thread was about the National Library of New Zealand no longer stocking overseas books that were available elsewhere. The linked newspaper report made no mention that, either the reason, or the the selection criteria was anything other than concerning "off-shore" books.

In his 1953 novel “The Go-Between,” L.P. Hartley wrote, “The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.” Like the erection of public statues, literature reflects the times in which it was written. We aren't going to discuss those differences here. Let's move on now.

As regards The Hardy Boys, many book series like those were written by a circle of several different authors, and the quality control was less important than the volume.

Sorry; I know I tend to have strong opinions about what I consider ethical issues, and I should do a better job of recognising when it’s appropriate.

 

[Randy M.]

The library system I use, though not as much as I use to, allows you to get books from other libraries through an Interlibrary Loan program. Theoretically this allows at least one library to have a copy of a book, while the others remove the book from their system. This seems to run more by chance than by the libraries jointly deciding what they keep and don't keep. Books do wear out and money isn't available to replace older books and to buy newer books at the same time. As more libraries are added to the database, the search is getting better, though you have to do some of the sorting yourself as just the author's name does not bring up one single list. You can find books faster by using the title. The drawback with that is that you need to know the title in advance, which can be found listed in other web sites. For an author like John Brunner, the farther away from my location a library is located, the more likely I will find a copy of one of his books. That could be happening because the area I am in has more money to buy new books which push the older books off the shelves.

Just to add to this, the university library branch I work in weeded about five years ago because room was tight -- we were around 85% full with new books coming in weekly -- and renovations in the 100+ year old stacks meant loss of some shelving. The criteria was, books published before 2000, not checked out in the last 20 years, and with at least 10 other libraries showing to have copies in WorldCat. This seemed sensible to me at the time, and still does as a way to make room for newer books without losing the chance of access to older works.