Fictional languages (Or use of existing ones)

[J.D.Rajotte]

On the tail end of my first novel of a series, set in a completely original world. The primary characters on the main continent all speak in English (although it's basically named after the primary country of the setting). There is a completely original, fictional language that I've created for an extinct ancient people, indigenous to said country. Now, on this fictional world, characters from other countries of the world all speak real life languages, depending on the culture they're based off of, (one island people literally speak japanese). Since my fictional world draws much inspiration from the real world, (as do many of these fictional countries) I find it easier and simpler to have said foreign characters speak the real life language of the country they're based off of, as opposed to creating multiple completely original languages for each. Is this OK? Should I instead take the painstaking time to create a new language for each and every fictional country in my work? Or can I get by using real languages in reference to their inspired origins? Sorry if this is worded confusingly I'm doing my best lol.

 

[Swank]

Are you expecting readers to read Japanese, French, German, English, etc?

If not, what is the plot function of naming the languages people are using if you are going to be sharing them in English translation anyway? Do you think the characters will need to discuss things like, "You know, people from his island speak Japanese"? Why would they call it Japanese if there is no Japan on this world?


There is a world of difference between the details that build an interesting world and details that will never impact what ends up in the text. If you think this is important, maybe share a writing example of how you would use this.

 

[Christine Wheelwright]

Are you expecting readers to read Japanese, French, German, English, etc?

If not, what is the plot function of naming the languages people are using if you are going to be sharing them in English translation anyway? Do you think the characters will need to discuss things like, "You know, people from his island speak Japanese"? Why would they call it Japanese if there is no Japan on this world?


There is a world of difference between the details that build an interesting world and details that will never impact what ends up in the text. If you think this is important, maybe share a writing example of how you would use this.

Agree wholeheartedly. Worldbuilding is something that happens while you are telling an interesting story.

 

[The Big Peat]

I must second the question. Does this matter? Are we going to see characters speaking their language on the page? Will their speech patterns reflect their grammar?

Because if the answer is no and no, or even no and yes, it doesn't hugely matter.

If you have actual words on the page it matters. While I wouldn't say 100% don't do it, I would say you're going to ruin some readers' immersion, and you're going to be held to a far higher standard on cultural fidelity regarding cultures using real life languages, and I would generally recommend against it.

 

[Wayne Mack]

If you've basically finished the novel, I would suggest going with the decisions you've already made. I am guessing the languages spoken provide cultural flavor rather than plot or character details. I am not sure what would be gained by going back and rewriting sections in new languages.

I am sort of curious, though. What is the level of depth you used for your various languages? Was it a few key words, grammatical phrasing, or a full translation? I am always looking for techniques to give different characters different speaking voices.

 

[sknox]

Another seconding of the initial response. The way I put it is, how hard do you expect your readers to work? How hard are you, as a reader, willing to work on a novel by an unknown author?

 

[Laura R Hepworth]

As someone that is also creating a language for one of their books, I think you're over thinking things a bit. You don't have to show every language that exists in your fantasy world, nor does it matter that your characters speak English. You write it in English because that's what your readers are likely to speak, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your characters have to actually be speaking in English in order for you to be writing their speech in English (think of it as you translating their dialogue into English rather than your characters actually speaking English). It's perfectly okay to make up your own languages (Tolkien and others have done this, however, it is tricky to do well), however, I wouldn't use it over much or it will make your writing very difficult to read. Throwing in a few words and phrases here and there where they have the best impact is all that you really need to do with it, and I'd only do this with your most important conlang. For all the others, all that you need to do is, maybe, have the names of these other languages and make the occasional reference to them muttering, cursing, asking something, etc. in this or that language. You can imply that multiple languages are at play without actually including the languages themselves. It's something that a little goes a long way with and, if you use too much, you'll lose a lot of readers. Use it sparingly and, if the book does well and you see a fair bit of interest in the language, you can always use more in future books and even make bonus material that is purely about the language for those that want more of it. Done well, created languages can add a lot to a fantasy world, but they can also seriously backfire on you if you're not careful. Using real languages in a high-fantasy book is going to be super hard to pull off unless you are able to say that those cultures actually originated from areas in the real world before, somehow, getting pulled into this other world. In that sort of scenario, then, yes, you could get away with using real languages. If, however, there is absolutely no connection with our world at all beyond being a source of inspiration for fictional cultures, than I think it's not going to work well at all and could actually hurt your book.

 

[Octavius Megano]

Use it sparingly and, if the book does well and you see a fair bit of interest in the language, you can always use more in future books and even make bonus material that is purely about the language for those that want more of it. Done well, created languages can add a lot to a fantasy world, but they can also seriously backfire on you if you're not careful.

I think this is spot on. If you're writing everything in English, the reference to the character's native tongue helps build a profile or flavor of the character in the readers mind. Original languages can do the same, but if you're going to use the original language, then the success of it, I think, depends on how in depth the world/character build is. Direct use of original languages can sometimes distract the heck out of a reader. It happens in film too. In the TV series Halo, the Blessed One speaks a lot in the Covenant language and for me it is grating to listen to. Sometimes less is more.

 

[AllanR]

If I were to be reading a book set on a fictional world and I'm told people on that island over there speak Japaneses because island or something....I would probably put the book down and stop reading.

 

[The Judge]

Since JDR has made it clear that his English speakers aren't, in their minds, speaking English but are in fact speaking a language named after the primary country of the setting, I'm rather assuming he's done the same with his Japanese analogue -- that is, the island isn't called Japan and their language isn't called Japanese, but as and when they speak in their native language he uses Japanese words/expressions/honorifics.

If that's the case, I can't see any problem with it. Certainly in my work, I've used real-world cultures as a loose basis for my invented-world peoples and I have no compunction in drawing not only names and place names from the relevant language but also words and terms such as "caruggi" and "prince d'epee" for flavour, especially where the English doesn't have the same effect. On occasion I've also had short sentences where I need it to be clear someone is speaking a foreign language as far as the POV character is concerned, but I'd like the reader to be able to work out/find out what is being said.

If we're accepting the conceit that the original language(s) of our characters has/have been translated into English for easy readability, why should we baulk at the foreign languages of their world being similarly translated into real-world languages for easier acceptance and understanding?

 

[The Big Peat]

If we're accepting the conceit that the original language(s) of our characters has/have been translated into English for easy readability, why should we baulk at the foreign languages of their world being similarly translated into real-world languages for easier acceptance and understanding?

Because why not translate everything into English for even easier understanding, or go with the old 'she said something in a language he didn't recognise'?

Yes, taking words and phrases from other languages is common and often makes sense. But actual sentences? That's rare and anything else apart, I don't see what it adds.

 

[The Judge]

Because why not translate everything into English for even easier understanding,

Because you want someone to be clearly speaking in a foreign language, perhaps in front of someone who doesn't immediately understand it, or for other plot reasons.

or go with the old 'she said something in a language he didn't recognise'?

Because in that particular instance (a) showing is better than telling and (b) you want the reader to understand/make a guess at what has been said eg so that they're ahead of the POV character.


I don't know if there's a failure of communication here, but I must say I'm astounded that occasional short sentences in a foreign language are seen as problematic if phrases in those languages -- which might be as long or longer -- are apparently acceptable.

 

[Laura R Hepworth]

I don't know if there's a failure of communication here, but I must say I'm astounded that occasional short sentences in a foreign language are seen as problematic if phrases in those languages -- which might be as long or longer -- are apparently acceptable

I don't have a problem with occasional sentences (long or short) in a foreign language being used in a book. In fact, I completely agree that it can really enhance the world building to do so. My concern would be that there may be a possible disconnect with readers if other real world languages are used in a fictional world with no ties to the real world (beyond being the source of inspiration for those cultures). It's not really a conceit to think of the original language(s) of our characters as being translated into English as no one thinks anything of a book (fantasy world or otherwise) being narrated in the language of the audience it is being written for. However, throwing in words, phrases, whole conversations, etc. in another language can get heavy criticism if not done well and this is true of whether it's a conlang or a real language. I've heard many rants over Christopher Poalini's poor attempt at a conlang for his Inheritance Cycle series. With real, recognizable languages in a fantasy world the issue is that it can jolt a reader out of their immersion in the book because they're wondering why on earth such and such a character is speaking such and such a language. Not to say everyone reading it will have the same reaction or that it can't be done or done well, but that it is a risk that they could hear criticism over. However, modifying the real language should work just fine and, maybe, be less work for the author as they wouldn't have to create something completely from scratch.

 

[Swank]

I don't know if there's a failure of communication here, but I must say I'm astounded that occasional short sentences in a foreign language are seen as problematic if phrases in those languages -- which might be as long or longer -- are apparently acceptable.

I don't think there is really an issue with using Japanese or whatever to provide untranslated sections of unreadable dialogue.

What has many of us scratching our heads is the idea that which languages are selected for which people could possibly matter, since the intent is for the reader to not be able to read them. On its face, the question appears to be like asking if it is okay to use a DC power system on the planet in question. How could this choice affect the reader, and if it doesn't, why make such complex decisions about worldbuilding that won't affect the story?

Well, I guess one downside is that readers could decide that your "foreign" characters are stereotypes - speaking Japanese and acting like what someone might think is Japanese. Which leads us back to: What is the upside of carefully assigning real world languages to fictional nations? And does that upside make all the extra work in writing this way pay off, or is it just more stuff that makes the hard task of writing harder?

 

[The Big Peat]

Because you want someone to be clearly speaking in a foreign language, perhaps in front of someone who doesn't immediately understand it, or for other plot reasons.


Because in that particular instance (a) showing is better than telling and (b) you want the reader to understand/make a guess at what has been said eg so that they're ahead of the POV character.


I don't know if there's a failure of communication here, but I must say I'm astounded that occasional short sentences in a foreign language are seen as problematic if phrases in those languages -- which might be as long or longer -- are apparently acceptable.

I think my point here is best broken into three points.

1) I have no inherent acceptance of the conceit of "they translated this to English, and translated the foreign languages in it to other foreign languages as well" and see no logical reason to bring it up. It can all be done in English - there are many accepted conceits for doing this. That's the best for easy understanding and acceptability.

If someone wishes to do it differently, then sure, but it's not something I'm going to accept just because. I wouldn't blink at an author using words with clear place/person etymologies in their translation (and some people don't have that conceit and do), but I will if you tell me the secondary world dwarves speak Gaelic or Hebrew because I don't have that conceit.

2) The acceptability in a vacuum

This is hugely context dependent but by and large, yes. I am willing to accept the best translation might involve the use of phrases in their thoughts that get across ideas English doesn't do a well, but the moment they are actually speaking and thinking in another language - not using a phase, but speaking and thinking - then I am going to potentially start viewing the book differently. That's where the emotional switch is for me. And obviously I am just me, but I don't feel like I'm unique here.

3) The acceptability of an author doing it in general

Look, if you or any author genuinely enjoy doing this and think it best for your works, rock on. Got to do what works for you. It won't be what the book lives and dies on for 99.9% of readers in any case. Even people who find it potentially immersion ruining are going to be fine a lot of the time if they're enjoying it.

But for an author who doesn't have a strong preference on how to represent foreign languages in their work - like the OP seems to be - then simply avoiding putting any other languages on the page is the simplest thing to do and also avoids some potentially major pitfalls.