Favorite examples of tropes and subversions done well?

[The Big Peat]

There might be limited utility discussing tropes in the context of satire like Discworld.

Curious as to why you think that.



A few other cases of authors really engaging with a popular conceit in a way that I thought made it pop

In the Belgariad by David (and Leigh) Eddings, Garion is the Chosen One foretold in prophecy... well, prophecy, does your choices matter then? The Eddings play with this by having the prophecy speak to Garion, and sometimes through him

In The First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie... yeah, some of the inversions have limited utility for me, but

Spoiler

asking what would happen if the long lost heir wasn't some boy from the wilds but a spoiled noble has some interesting moments, even if I spend a lot of the book wanting someone to trip Jezal up at the top of a long flight of stairs and for him to be never mentioned again

 

[Swank]

Curious as to why you think that.



A few other cases of authors really engaging with a popular conceit in a way that I thought made it pop

In the Belgariad by David (and Leigh) Eddings, Garion is the Chosen One foretold in prophecy... well, prophecy, does your choices matter then? The Eddings play with this by having the prophecy speak to Garion, and sometimes through him

In The First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie... yeah, some of the inversions have limited utility for me, but

Spoiler

asking what would happen if the long lost heir wasn't some boy from the wilds but a spoiled noble has some interesting moments, even if I spend a lot of the book wanting someone to trip Jezal up at the top of a long flight of stairs and for him to be never mentioned again

Because the comedic use of fiction device is just referential satire rather than honest representation. It doesn't really explore the trope as much as mock it, breaking the fourth wall and decreasing the realism.

I like comedy, but comedy doesn't really explore new territory as much as self consciously pillory the least creative uses of a trope.

 

[Bramandin]

There might be limited utility discussing tropes in the context of satire like Discworld.

Considering that the place runs on narrativium, trope deconstruction is its bread and butter. Tropes would be a useful place to start if trying to write a Discworld fanfiction.

 

[Swank]

Considering that the place runs on narrativium, trope deconstruction is its bread and butter. Tropes would be a useful place to start if trying to write a Discworld fanfiction.

I'm not sure what that has to do with my point that the discussion of tropes in fiction isn't furthered by talking about their caricatures.

 

[Bramandin]

To me, Caricature seems like a good way to examine something.

 

[The Big Peat]

Because the comedic use of fiction device is just referential satire rather than honest representation. It doesn't really explore the trope as much as mock it, breaking the fourth wall and decreasing the realism.

I like comedy, but comedy doesn't really explore new territory as much as self consciously pillory the least creative uses of a trope.

I don't know whether I agree with this or not in a broader sense but in Pratchett's case, I would say he offered a great deal of honest representation and exploration of a great many tropes.

I'd also point out that a lot of fantasy authors have a tendency to dip into satire as and when it pleases them, particularly when it comes to playing with tropes - ban all of them and this topic becomes quite bare quite quickly.

 

[KGeo777]

This was a topic I thought about starting, because Lovecraft said there was a difference between story themes that were personal in impact and ones that were exotic (and sinister). Another forum topic was touching on this but not directly.

What would be a familiar or personal kind of theme or story trope?
A story where a character in a village has to defend the village from some threat--either from the outside or some kind of internal one (which is usually represented as a sickness--a mentally unfit ruler or a treasonous character).
It is also traditional that the character who is chosen by the village or Fate to defend the village be the brightest, the strongest, the bravest--or the child of some great warrior.
It is biological. You would not expect the weakest to do it.
The Ugly Duckling story is about maturity. The weak and ugly baby grows into a successful adult. It is meant to be a positive lesson.

What's an example of subversion?


Richard Matheson's I Am Legend.
He takes the role of the hero vs the monster--and completely subverts it. The normal becomes the abnormal and there is a suggestion that at the end that it isn't that bad. It's negative yet the world will continue.

Matheson's work is exotic in theme--but he had a way of doing it which somehow feels kind of new agey holistic.
The Incredible Shrinking Man--it is about a character who is helpless--not a heroic story--but in the end, the character surrenders to the infinite--that it is ok that this has happened. It's not the end of the world even though his place in it is not one of control.
Nightmare At 20 000 Feet--the abnormal passenger is the one who can sense the threat and deals with it.
That is a complete subversion of the story type that traces back to Beowulf. The healthiest and the strongest is not the savior.

The Odyssey is a variation on Beowulf--it is the adventurer seeking to return home (I think there is a suggestion that he would have been better off staying home instead of going off on a foreign war-an idea which still resonates today). He needs to defend his home from the local threat--the suitors.
It is suggested he deserves his kingdom because he is strongest--the brightest--favored of the gods. It is interesting that his patron deity is female though.

Superman and Batman are examples of subversion.
Superman is an alien who is the savior of a foreign land instead of a threat to it --his home is gone.
Also, the big bad guy is a local boy. Lex Luthor. The brightest earthling--he's the bad guy.

Batman is a crime fighter driven by the spirit of revenge (at least in the origin story which was rarely mentioned until the 1970s).

Batman was based on Zorro they say, but Zorro was not driven by vengeance. Zorro is the son of a wealthy landowner who wants to save the local peasantry or tribes from Spanish oppressors.
The revenge aspect to Batman was increased in the 1980s to psychotic levels. It became everything.
The Northman is similar in idea--about a viking who seeks revenge (after decades of nurturing it), against someone who killed his father.
Seeking to reclaim a rightful throne--that is common in storytelling, and blood feuds are too--which is linked to territorial defense and competing for chieftain status and rival tribes--there's a natural biological framework to this behavior.
But if you are motivated by revenge--that's not usually seen as a good thing in traditional literature.

Ahab
Frankenstein and his creature
Hamlet (which may or may not have driven him mad)
Achilles (his grudge with Agamemnon leads to tragedy)

None of these are considered good behavior examples.

Excessive passion is a no-no in classical literature. You have to keep a check on it.

It turns up in some modern things--like Star Wars--Luke is going to kill Darth Vader but then he sees that it would lead to his destruction (the loss of limbs reminds him) so he backs off from that.
But it is also subversive because as a result, Luke needs his father to save him from the bad guy.

Indiana Jones did too--in the Last Crusade--he was going to grab the Holy Grail and his father tells him, don't do it.

On one hand it is Arthur and Merlin, but on the other, Indiana Jones is 50 years old and acting like a child!

 

[Bramandin]

Superman is an alien who is the savior of a foreign land instead of a threat to it --his home is gone.

This makes Invincible interesting because you don't expect a character who seems inspired by Superman to be an Invader From Mars due to that reversal. Iron Giant had the intended invader decide to be Superman. MegaMind probably would have been the hero to begin with if he had gotten positive attention for being good earlier, but that whole thing was blindly turning lazy expectations on their head with no regard to how much sense it would make.

 

[BAYLOR]

This makes Invincible interesting because you don't expect a character who seems inspired by Superman to be an Invader From Mars due to that reversal. Iron Giant had the intended invader decide to be Superman. MegaMind probably would have been the hero to begin with if he had gotten positive attention for being good earlier, but that whole thing was blindly turning lazy expectations on their head with no regard to how much sense it would make.

You might want to checkout the science fiction novel The Gladiator by Phillip Wylie Its something of a precursor to Superman

 

[Astro Pen]

Use tropes and clichés wisely grasshopper.

 

[DLCroix]

I believe that the use of tropes will allow the author more satire in direct proportion to his orientation towards the pulp and instead the treatment should be more serious, or intelligent say, if his aspirations are more intellectual and away from the pulp. I wonder how Philip Roth or Michael Chabon would do this.

 

[Swank]

To me, Caricature seems like a good way to examine something.

Caricature is when you decide to examine "what is gender?" and you're using Monty Python cross dressing as a starting point. You're not going to get into new territory if you start with a mocking stereotype.

I'd also point out that a lot of fantasy authors have a tendency to dip into satire as and when it pleases them, particularly when it comes to playing with tropes - ban all of them and this topic becomes quite bare quite quickly.

Just my opinion, but tropes that are pointed out to the reader aren't really tropes at all. The only thing truly interesting about tropes is when their use is so well done that we don't notice - either because the author brings something fresh or subverts them.

Poking fun at them isn't, itself, creative. It is entertaining, though. However, since the '80s all the SF films have become self conscious caricatured entertainment - so I'm a little sick of it as a category of entertainment.

 

[The Big Peat]

Just my opinion, but tropes that are pointed out to the reader aren't really tropes at all. The only thing truly interesting about tropes is when their use is so well done that we don't notice - either because the author brings something fresh or subverts them.

Poking fun at them isn't, itself, creative. It is entertaining, though. However, since the '80s all the SF films have become self conscious caricatured entertainment - so I'm a little sick of it as a category of entertainment.

Well I'm not sure I disagree with that either! It feels like if you lock 3 readers into a room and ask them what they mean by trope, you get 5 definitions and I don't think this one is utterly wrong.

However, I do think poking fun can be creative, and I do think someone can use common story elements in a way that is both poking fun at previous usage and creating something new and interesting to add to the element. Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone was poking fun at the S&S heroes of the past to a certain extent, and became a massive inspirational part of the genre, to pick one example.

 

[KGeo777]

You might want to checkout the science fiction novel The Gladiator by Phillip Wylie Its something of a precursor to Superman

In that case, the story is more cautionary. He is given freakish powers due to scientific experiment--it's more along the lines of "not meddling in things beyond your grasp."
Superman only had powers because of the alien sun.

There was a German film with a similar idea--it sounds like if the author had wanted to expand the story, this would have been the direction it could have gone:

"'Homunculus' was the most popular serial in Germany during World War I even influencing the dress of the fashionable set in Berlin. Foenss, a Danish star, is the perfect creature manufactured in a laboratory by Kuehne. Having discovered his origins, that he has no 'soul' and is incapable of love, he revenges himself on mankind, instigating revolutions and becoming a monstrous but beautiful tyrant, relentlessly pursued by his creator-father who seeks to rectify his mistake."


Consider Captain Marvel--he was a child-also an orphan, who is given powers because he is recognized as having some noble or merit qualities. That's kind of a variation on the Ugly Duckling, but his powers come from the Earth--they come from Earth myth figures, not aliens. He is a more "homey" kind of superhero than Superman.
Another thing is that in some ways Lex Luthor and Batman are similar--they are both industrialist geniuses. Batman's antagonism to Superman also grew in time-less trusting of him compared to the original team up stories.


Another thematic issue is Nature vs Nurture.
Back to the Future is a good example--that's Nurture over Nature. The idea is that a single event can alter one's personality and behavior.
George McFly completely changes in personality.

But you don't find that in Poe--in this stories there's the creep of hereditary madness--Nature over Nurture.

Speaking of Matheson again-his story for the Pit and the Pendulum--it combines Poe elements but also subverts them.
Nicholas is traumatized by the memory of his sadistic father killing his adulterous mother---and his wife schemes to drive him mad for her own purposes but it causes him to mentally snap and think he is his own father. Is it Nature over Nurture? or Nurture over Nature. It is debatable.

I love this topic.

 

[DLCroix]

The only thing truly interesting about tropes is when their use is so well done that we don't notice - either because the author brings something fresh or subverts them.

How true, thanks for the precision of concepts, @Swank. I actually think that's the key to tropes. Well, perhaps many apply this principle unconsciously; instead we, mere mortals, need to meditate about the figures that we are using in our stories. Well, at least those of us who tried. In addition, it is not that we know much about semiotics except for the examples that we have been learning as a result of our readings or an enlightening talk with someone more versed in the matter. Which, by the way, are usually strange miracles. Or flashes of wit like this one you just blasted out, @Swank. In fact someone who is studying Literature should keep that sentence. Because it sums up the importance of turning a hackneyed stunt back into a dazzling act. Thanks for sharing.

 

[DLCroix]

I love this topic.

And although I don't like reading about cinema in a literature forum, I must admit that I haven't seen these real hammer blows of analysis for a long time. It's such a delight to read everything you write, @KGeo777. A privilege to have you with us.

 

[BAYLOR]

And although I don't like reading about cinema in a literature forum, I must admit that I haven't seen these real hammer blows of analysis for a long time. It's such a delight to read everything you write, @KGeo777. A privilege to have you with us.

Robot Titans of Gotham by Novell Page The main character , The Spider is a crime fighting precursor to Batman . This book is the start of series that ran about 250 novels . The wrtingimn the series actually top notch as is the story telling

Cool McCool is ananimated spy spoof from 1969 created by Bob Kane (Batman) and Al Brodax( Poeye). You can see some of the episodes on YouTube

Dudley Do Right. He's a member of the Canadian Mputiees and party Trop of the handsome her ore. He loves Nell yjr dduahger of his commanding officer , she love his Dudley Horse . by Jay Ward

Also by Jay Ward George of the Jungle is basically a send spot parody trope of Tarzan . It need up a end a live action film Staring Bendon Fraiser. There were two other she tied with it Tom Slick and Super Chicken.

Commander McBragg another Jay Ward Creation . He took English explorer stereotype Trope and gave it a Baron Munchausen spin . As ever episode The good Commander would rope some poor fool into hearing one his improbable tales of heroic adventure.

 

[DLCroix]

Calm down a bit, guys, take your foot off the gas. They are dispatching so much jewelry that I can't take note. It is impossible to digest information well so quickly! You guys are true encyclopedias. In fact I got the First Law to take a look at it, but at this rate it is very difficult.

 

[JunkMonkey]

Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone was poking fun at the S&S heroes of the past to a certain extent, and became a massive inspirational part of the genre, to pick one example.

A classic example of 'not getting the joke', I.E. people taking something to heart because they didn't realise it was ridiculing them and took it as an endorsement. Like the Barry McKenzie films were a big hit with the ocker idiots they were parodying and harry Enfield had to kill off his obnoxious Loadsmoney character when he became a hero to the type of selfish twats he was ridiculing. Some people are just too dumb to notice that they are being insulted.

 

[The Big Peat]

A classic example of 'not getting the joke', I.E. people taking something to heart because they didn't realise it was ridiculing them and took it as an endorsement. Like the Barry McKenzie films were a big hit with the ocker idiots they were parodying and harry Enfield had to kill off his obnoxious Loadsmoney character when he became a hero to the type of selfish twats he was ridiculing. Some people are just too dumb to notice that they are being insulted.

Was Moorcock ridiculing S&S though, or poking fun at the same time as offering his own version? Not all playful engagement with stereotype is insult.