Would space colonies see us develop new ethnicities and physical/mental adaptions to those places?

[Bramandin]

People being people, are going to be exposed to all kinds of conditions with all kinds of results.

Though if we're going to go into gene modification, people designed for microgravity are probably going to have feet that can grip.

 

[Swank]

Most of the discussion is about living in perfect space structures with everything needed for a normal existence. Getting there is another story, and even not everyone will have the same opportunities. It takes a long time to get there.

As people start to move off Earth, they are going to be living in all sorts of structures in space, from small stations to big O'Neill cylinders. Not everything is going to be 100 percent shielded. People being people, are going to be exposed to all kinds of conditions with all kinds of results. For the space structures in our solar system, the farther away from the sun they get, the more likely they will probably have artificial lightning. For that matter, not every O'Neill cylinder is going to be parked next to a bright star. A window that only lets through visible light while blocking out harmful radiation would be standard on big operations but might be luxury on smaller operations.

Some of the best shielding right now is water or cement, neither is currently practical for our capabilities. Heavy metal shielding creates secondary particles from the collisions which can be worse than the initial radiation if it is not thick enough, which creates a weight problem. The space station uses the Earth's natural shield for blocking radiation and for the sleeping quarters, a lightweight polyethylene plastic, called RFX1, which is composed entirely of lightweight carbon and hydrogen atoms is used. For now, it turns out for practical purposes, plastic works better than aluminum.

Plastic works better than aluminum because hydrogen provides the best shielding. Polyethylene might be good for thin walls, but to build multiple large O'Neils you might be looking at capturing asteroids of comets. At that point you have fairly large amounts of ice to use as shielding.

And you probably mainly need it for the sun pointing nose of the station.

 

[JunkMonkey]

Though if we're going to go into gene modification, people designed for microgravity are probably going to have feet that can grip.

and go barefoot all the time? Or were you thinking of opposable big toes? in which case shoes would have to look like gloves. And if you were going to go that far, wouldn't it be logical to make the whole foot more hand-like, and the ankle more wrist-like, with the ability to hold, twist and manipulate (pedipulate?) things?

 

[Bramandin]

and go barefoot all the time? Or were you thinking of opposable big toes? in which case shoes would have to look like gloves. And if you were going to go that far, wouldn't it be logical to make the whole foot more hand-like, and the ankle more wrist-like, with the ability to hold, twist and manipulate (pedipulate?) things?

The modifications would probably depend on whether the line is going to be designed to always be in microgravity or if their children are going to have the option of living on a planet. Go full ape-foot and they wouldn't be able to walk far without support even if their muscles are good enough. Then again with prosthetic technology the way it is, someone with feet that hamper them could have them removed and replaced. Or they might be able to turn them into a chimera so that limb-regeneration technology can give them a foot suitable for where they want to live.

 

[MaxRelaxman]

I was thinking about this, except more culturally recently. Ethnically people would just blend because they live closer together. There's only so much room, even on an O'Neil cylinder. Like other people have mentioned I don't think you'd see physiological differences unless people are living on different planets. So Martians would be taller than Earthers, but shorter than Lunies.
One thing I think is different from the Expanse is that I don't see people living on asteroids, maybe next to them in space stations but unless you're going to change the rotation of an asteroid in live in it upside down so the rotation gives you spin gravity like an O'Neil cylinder, I don't see the point. The gravity is too low. I guess you gain 'free' radiation shielding but I imagine we'd be able to make better shielding by the time we're thinking about colonizing asteroids.

 

[Swank]

I was thinking about this, except more culturally recently. Ethnically people would just blend because they live closer together. There's only so much room, even on an O'Neil cylinder. Like other people have mentioned I don't think you'd see physiological differences unless people are living on different planets. So Martians would be taller than Earthers, but shorter than Lunies.
One thing I think is different from the Expanse is that I don't see people living on asteroids, maybe next to them in space stations but unless you're going to change the rotation of an asteroid in live in it upside down so the rotation gives you spin gravity like an O'Neil cylinder, I don't see the point. The gravity is too low. I guess you gain 'free' radiation shielding but I imagine we'd be able to make better shielding by the time we're thinking about colonizing asteroids.

Depends if you are hollowing out the asteroids in the process of mining them. If so, that's free living space. And why not rotate them?

 

[Bramandin]

I was thinking about this, except more culturally recently. Ethnically people would just blend because they live closer together.

There was a Reddit thread recently where a white person grew up in a poor black neighborhood and is now having trouble with whether he's "allowed" to speak the dialect that he grew up with just because he's the wrong color. The whole issue is so complicated that my opinion is in the realm of "I don't care how, just make it stop being a problem."

In space, there will probably be immigrant guidebooks on what is socially acceptable to assimilate and what isn't. There's really no telling whether cultural appropriation will start to be seen in more neutral terms again with very little off limits.

 

[Wayne Mack]

Depends if you are hollowing out the asteroids in the process of mining them. If so, that's free living space. And why not rotate them?

Given that travel to asteroid required a viable biome, why carry the materials and spend the additional effort to create another? Does it make any sense to carry additional oxygen to pressurize a mining tunnel? To establish an airlock and, perhaps, have to seal the walls to prevent leakage? Why carry extra rockets and fuel to be used to spin the asteroid? If one had extra rockets, why not direct the asteroid back towards Earth, instead? I feel trying to make the asteroid into a habitable abode would incur too much extra cost and lack any real benefit.

 

[Wayne Mack]

why?

Given that the station would have unrestricted sunlight, squinting of the eyes would be common place. This would be considered the normal appearance and therefore narrow eyes might become a favored trait.

 

[Wayne Mack]

This is wrong on several counts. First, dark skin came before light skin. Light skin was an adaptation Europeans received that probably allowed them generate sufficient vitamin D, despite short winter days and full coverage clothing. This is what the direct ancestors of modern Britons looked like, 10,000 years ago:

Second, plenty of lighter skinned people live in areas with intense, direct sunlight. And they have survived because people have technology - like sleeves and hats - that prevent being damaged by the sun.

Third, we aren't talking about abandoning animals inside a glass space tube. A space station can have filtering windows that block the most harmful parts of the spectrum. It will also have clothes for its occupants, and medicine to deal with things like sunburn or cancer.

Which brings us once again back to number four: Evolution doesn't work that way. For light skinned people to be selected against, those light skinned people would have to die in large numbers prior to reproducing compared to their dark skinned neighbors. Do you know of anyplace in the last 5000 years where light skinned people died off due to sunburn? Do you think the many light skinned occupants of Miami or Cuba or Sicily are dying in droves in their teens? Or do those people use technology like roofs, hats, sunscreen to moderate their sun exposure?


Humans no longer adapt to their environment - they adapt their environment to their needs. The way many of these posts have been going, I'm surprised no one has suggested that humans would naturally be able to survive in vacuum since it is right outside the space station.

In that case, I assume that there is agreement that skin pigmentation will adapt to light levels. I will also suggest that, in equatorial regions, darker skin pigmentation predominate. This, I feel is sufficient for the hypothesis that, if the equatorial light levels were recreated in a closed environment, then similar skin hues would result.

I suggest that for a viable station, one would optimize for plant growth and UV radiation is extremely beneficial to plants. One would not filter down UV levels for human benefit. Given that adjusting the station in order to recreate seasons would seem to overcomplicate the station design, I would expect it to be geared towards tropical plant life.

I can only speculate what the driving forces behind space station evolution might be. Two off the top of my head are farmer productivity and the lack of attractiveness associated with sunburn and ski cancer. The person who is best adapted to working long hours under the sun would become the more productive farmer (and farming would be a significant need in sustaining a closed colony). Sunburn directly leads to avoidance of physical contact and peeling skin is unattractive. Skin cancers and their aftermath, especially on faces, would also tend to make people less attractive. Is this enough to spur the development of a new ethnicity in a relatively small, closed community? I don't know, but given multiple generations, it feels plausible.

 

[JunkMonkey]

Given that the station would have unrestricted sunlight, squinting of the eyes would be common place. This would be considered the normal appearance and therefore narrow eyes might become a favored trait.

Lamarckian inheritance? or are you suggesting that our habitat-dwelling descendents will be too ****ing stupid to put a hat on?

"Hmm, do I fancy the squinty face idiot getting skin cancer or the sensible person wearing a wide brimmed hat with the interesting, readable facial expressions who can see where he's going? I wonder which would be a better father to my children?"

 

[Wayne Mack]

Lamarckian inheritance? or are you suggesting that our habitat-dwelling descendents will be too ****ing stupid to put a hat on?

"Hmm, do I fancy the squinty face idiot getting skin cancer or the sensible person wearing a wide brimmed hat with the interesting, readable facial expressions who can see where he's going? I wonder which would be a better father to my children?"

Consider reflective light and low angle light. The O'Neill cylinder typically consists of six panels of alternating land mass and window. In the center of a land section, only one-third of the light energy comes from overhead. At the edges, significant light energy is coming straight up. I am not sure that a hat brim would be sufficient to shield one's eyes.

 

[Swank]

Given that travel to asteroid required a viable biome, why carry the materials and spend the additional effort to create another? Does it make any sense to carry additional oxygen to pressurize a mining tunnel? To establish an airlock and, perhaps, have to seal the walls to prevent leakage? Why carry extra rockets and fuel to be used to spin the asteroid? If one had extra rockets, why not direct the asteroid back towards Earth, instead? I feel trying to make the asteroid into a habitable abode would incur too much extra cost and lack any real benefit.

If there's ice, there's oxygen.

Would the crew not value more living space and better particle/radiation protection? Wouldn't operations be easier without pressure suits?

If there is mining mass being flung off the asteroid, then its recoil provides all the delta V you need to start spinning.

If you are riding the asteroid back to earth, why not use those rockets to impart spin?

What is "cost" when it comes to projects like these? You think Boeing is paying for this?

Given that the station would have unrestricted sunlight, squinting of the eyes would be common place. This would be considered the normal appearance and therefore narrow eyes might become a favored trait.

So, the new theory is that people who are less attractive don't find partners for reproduction? Do you find that only your most attractive friends marry?

In that case, I assume that there is agreement that skin pigmentation will adapt to light levels. I will also suggest that, in equatorial regions, darker skin pigmentation predominate. This, I feel is sufficient for the hypothesis that, if the equatorial light levels were recreated in a closed environment, then similar skin hues would result.

Skin color doesn't adapt. Organisms die off if they have severe difficiencies or rampant cancer. Again, have you seen any white people dying off anywhere?

Consider reflective light and low angle light. The O'Neill cylinder typically consists of six panels of alternating land mass and window. In the center of a land section, only one-third of the light energy comes from overhead. At the edges, significant light energy is coming straight up. I am not sure that a hat brim would be sufficient to shield one's eyes.

The other light coming in is starlight. Do you squint at the Milky Way? There is no light diffusion in space - light travels in straight lines. Shadow is total.



I had hopes that this would be a pretty interesting discussion, but most of what we are talking about is remedial science.

 

[Brian G Turner]

We're veering so much toward social politics in this thread that it's going to be safer to close it. Obviously, if you're writing about space colonies feel free to use your imagination.