Who thinks Faster Than Light travel is possible?

[Swank]

A philosophical concern rather than a physical one. Why this particular relationship between Force, mass and acceleration? Why not F = m a^2, F = ln (m a) or F^2 = 1 / (m cosh (a) ) or any of the infinite number of different mathematical relationships I could posit?

It seems like this is part of living in a relativistic universe. With no set base velocity, how could you say how far into an acceleration curve you were in? You'd end up with situations where you could manufacture energy from the differential in the force required to put two objects in identical orbits via different acceleration. It would be an unbalanced mess.

Sure this is Newton' s first law. Nice. And F = ma is Newton's 2nd law, and we have Newton's third: for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Yet some of the concepts used in all three are fundamentally axioms that I can still ask: why do we observe the universe seemingly applying these axioms? Are there deeper reasons?

While these make more sense stated as three laws, they really are the same law from different points of view. Take the linguistics out of it and it is one symmetrical law.

Imagine a universe where two identical objects orbiting a planet a millimeter apart would need to change orbit if they touched and therefore doubled in mass. It doesn't seem like there are a lot of other options besides F=MA.



Broon, you are a physicist, correct? I was hoping someone could answer this:
Given that you can get to places in the universe with a high degree of local time dilation without needing to expend the force normally associated with high acceleration reference frames, how would you know you weren't in a place with a greater degree of dilation?

I'm thinking of the Interstellar thing, where traveling to and from a world orbiting closely around a black hole can be accomplished without the kind of acceleration needed to get to a large percentage of lightspeed. Given that the dilation changes the way you observe the outside universe, would that change in observation hide the fact that the center of the galaxy's black hole is much, much bigger than we think, and the Milky way exists in a relatively high degree of dilation - affecting our observations about the rest of the universe's red shift?

 

[LordOfWizards]

The Newton was defined, as far as I can tell, by the equation F = ma, so it's kinda a circular argument!

Yes. I always imagine scenarios/examples. To me theory can't be well understood without examples (or possibly thought experiments).

So, a mass is at rest in space where there is no gravity. Something pushes it. What? acceleration? There is no acceleration without force. And no force without acceleration. very circular.
F = ma doesn't mention what object is doing the pushing, but if nothing was pushing it would stay at rest. It doesn't need to mention where the force comes from. It is only modeling what happens as the result of the push.

Mathematics is useful because through experiment we can observe what occurs in this universe. I'm kind of glad Newton found the relationship to be this simple. Newton didn't invent the underlying laws. They were already here. Newton found a model for interactions between masses, and experiments proved him correct over time.

I doubt Newtons 'Theories' of Force and Gravity were immediately accepted.

I like Max Planck's statement on scientific theories: “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”

 

[Ensign Shah]

Having looked at the science, examined the theories, agonised over the formulas, I can only conclude that my answer should be, erm, maybe

 

[paranoid marvin]

I suppose it depends on what we mean by travelling faster than light. Can I - somehow - get from point A to point B faster than the light from (for example) a particle of light can? Yes I believe this is definitely possible. The answer doesn't lie in a straight line 'drag race', but in finding ways to circumvent this method of physical travel. 'Folding' space, teleportation, and natural or induced wormholes are just some of the possibilities, but I'm sure that there are plenty more.

As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, considering our position in the backwaters of the western spiral arm of the galaxy in the outer reaches of the universe, it seems incredible to me that we can say with any certainty how the universe works. I'm sure it was Douglas Adams who said (something along the lines of) our understanding of the universe is about the same as an ant's understanding of the workings of the Tokyo subway system. I wish I could find the exact quotation, but I don't think he's too far off the mark with this suggestion.

 

[Wayne Mack]

F = ma doesn't mention what object is doing the pushing, but if nothing was pushing it would stay at rest.

I feel that this may be confusing acceleration and velocity. Without force, an object in motion would stay in motion. I tend to find the concept of an object of being at rest to be a little bit confusing. When comparing two objects, we usually define one as being at rest because its frame of reference allows for the simpler description of the major forces acting on the two bodies.

Without any force acting on it, an object retains is speed and direction.

 

[Harpo]

I think we’re currently at the “Roman chariot” level of thinking, and that actually achieving proper FTL travel is at the “Space shuttle rockets” level, but we can’t see that possibility yet.

[width of two horses determined the distance between a chariot’s wheels, then wheel ruts in roads determined that all wagons use the same width, and so on through history until the people who built the first railways were wagonmakers who used the by-now standard width measurement, and then when the space shuttle was being designed and made, the fuel rockets could only be wide enough to fit through train tunnels between the factory and the launch site. I may have got a few details wrong but that’s essentially the gist]

 

[Ursa major]

I may have got a few details wrong

Well, the loading gauge (that which indicates how large something on the railway can be without hitting anything above or to the sides of the railway track) is not the same as the gauge of the track: European and US railway locomotives, carriages (passenger cars) and wagons (freight cars) are often too high and/or wide to travel along UK railways, even when they're all designed to run on standard gauge (4' 8½" and 1435mm) track.

 

[Harpo]

Well, the loading gauge (that which indicates how large something on the railway can be without hitting anything above or to the sides of the railway track) is not the same as the gauge of the track: European and US railway locomotives, carriages (passenger cars) and wagons (freight cars) are often too high and/or wide to travel along UK railways, even when they're all designed to run on standard gauge (4' 8½" and 1435mm) track.

Ok. Yes there are different gauges, but my point remains - in terms of making FTL travel a real thing, we are still way down at the Roman Chariot level.

 

[Finch]

Ok. Yes there are different gauges, but my point remains - in terms of making FTL travel a real thing, we are still way down at the Roman Chariot level.

I don't know anything about chariots ,but I do know a lot about trains . So , I'm on train level . As for the speed of light , if you believe faster than light travel is possible, point me to the evidence. To believe in a possibility of faster than light travel doesn't make it possible.

 

[Harpo]

Indeed. A Roman charioteer believing in horseless carriages powered by steam and running along long metal rails doesn’t make it possible for the Romans to build a working railway. As for ditto regarding space shuttle rockets, such an absurdity would have been laughed at or worse. That’s my point - we do not have evidence for such things as FTL travel being possible, but someday maybe somebody will.

Unless of course this actually works

https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/586829/#post-2701626

 

[Swank]

People who used chariots could conceive of rockets. We can't actually conceive of FTL outside of stringing three words together. But that is like talking about temperatures below absolute zero or telekinesis - these are all fictional ideas, not scientific speculation.

 

[Harpo]

People who used chariots could conceive of rockets. We can't actually conceive of FTL outside of stringing three words together. But that is like talking about temperatures below absolute zero or telekinesis - these are all fictional ideas, not scientific speculation.

It’s just an analogy, let’s not get bogged down in chariots and trains.
The same general thing applies for anything else. I’m just saying that from us now considering/dismissing the notion of possible FTL travel, all the way up to it actually being a reality, is a very very long way, probably with several stages along the way.

 

[Swank]

It’s just an analogy, let’s not get bogged down in chariots and trains.
The same general thing applies for anything else. I’m just saying that from us now considering/dismissing the notion of possible FTL travel, all the way up to it actually being a reality, is a very very long way, probably with several stages along the way.

I'm not getting caught up details, I'm pointing out that FTL is a fictional idea rather than a scientific concept that might be technically unreachable anytime soon.

For there to be FTL, a major exception to our understanding of reality would have to occur, and there is no way to progress to such a discovery through simple diligence. So if FTL is discovered, it could happen next week. But we don't have a methodology to arrive at an advance we don't think is real at this point.

 

[Harpo]

Of course. All that is yet to come.

 

[paeng]

I saw a couple of old Horizon episodes about this in relation to time travel, and one group (Einstein's) argued that it can't happen, or at least one can't go back in time, while another group (those involved in quantum mechanics) argued that it can if space-time is curved, or that reality consists of parallel universes like undulating membranes, such that one can jump back and forth between universes.

Or something like that.

 

[Harpo]

Time-travel again, eh? I’ve covered that several times before.

Time is an illusion

Yes, I suppose this is possible. Have transporter 'pads' that can move you from one to another in both space and time. But there has to have been a 'pad' made at the other side to be able to make the journey. It's entirely possible that in the near future with more and more powerful computers...

www.sffchronicles.com

time travel

I've been thinking about time travel lately and cannot help but wonder this, if you go back in time and meet younger versions of people you know in your current present, can you theoretically change history through your interaction with them? If, as theoretical physics seems to suggest, it's...

www.sffchronicles.com

problems of time travel being common and ordinary

I've long thought that when the first time machine gets invented and switched on, somebody from the future will instantly come out of it - travelling as far back in their past as they can. That person will be regarded as the temporal equivalent of Neil Armstrong. If, in the future, time...

www.sffchronicles.com

Time Travel

An interesting idea I came across on another forum was that "UFO's" are actually us in the future. Not saying I believe that, but a man can dream- no? Anyway, I think I would tempt everything and go back to the days Jesus Christ supposidly existed. I'm an atheist mind you, but I keep an open...

www.sffchronicles.com

Time travel could be possible ... in the future

Theoretical physicist Amos Ori has calculated in his equations that time travel, especially into the past could indeed be possible, but unlike previous models which require negative energy or exotic matter, this one created by Mr. Ori does not need it, thus, making time travel a seem like a real...

www.sffchronicles.com

https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/12031/page-150#post-733353

 

[J Riff]

right, no but yes.

 

[Serendipity]

The first science fiction stories involving FTL travel were before Einstein published is Special Theory of Relativity paper in 1905 - it means that FTL at that time could be considered legitimate science fiction had the phrase existed then.

I think I already uploaded a link to an article I wrote last summer of where we are on FTL progress, but for convenience - Faster-Than-Light Travel? Yes Please!: an article by: Rosie Oliver.

There haven't been any notable announcements on progress since... but IMHO I think we're looking in the areas of physics for FTL.

 

[Swank]

The first science fiction stories involving FTL travel were before Einstein published is Special Theory of Relativity paper in 1905 - it means that FTL at that time could be considered legitimate science fiction had the phrase existed then.

I think I already uploaded a link to an article I wrote last summer of where we are on FTL progress, but for convenience - Faster-Than-Light Travel? Yes Please!: an article by: Rosie Oliver.

There haven't been any notable announcements on progress since... but IMHO I think we're looking in the areas of physics for FTL.

I respectfully disagree that the items mentioned in your article constitute progress toward FTL. The Alcubierre drive, for instance, is just a thought experiment that says that you aren't breaking one sort of physics as long as you have broken another sort first - "negative mass". This is just kicking the can down the road, since negative mass is the fiction you get out of an equation based on presuming FTL when you solve for mass. Or, when you presume that going back in time is possible.

It's like saying that I am a billionaire as long as you postulate something called "negative paychecks" and solve for X.


There might be a way to travel FTL. The universe has lots of secrets. But we don't know any of the pertinent ones at this time.

 

[Harpo]

At this time. No we don’t. But when we acquire time-travel (see details in my links above) all the future discoveries and inventions will be available to us.
Extrapolating from that - then FTL travel will lead us rapidly to joining the best Intergalactic Federation or equivalent, and we’ll acquire their future stuff as well. Why should they give them to us?
Maybe we’ll be the first with time travel, and we can trade