1.04: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - The Great Wave

[Dave]

-----------------------------
Creating topic, remember you
can only discuss this episode
inside this topic. Reviews of
the episode are encouraged
-----------------------------

The Queen Regent Míriel's faith is tested; Isildur comes to a crossroads; Arondir receives an ultimatum; Elrond unveils a secret; Theo disobeys Bronwyn.

 

[farntfar]

It's always a shame when they diminish something's importance by making out that a character has seen it before, when she clearly couldn't have.

So, I was disappointed to hear Galadriel say "Don't worry. This isn't my first Palantir experience."
Also, I can't remember her exact wording, but the way she said it, I was instantly reminded of Michael Palin in the Travel Agent sketch (also "What a silly bunt etc"), saying, "Oh yes. I've been on package holidays many times....."
Otherwise, a good trick to join Miriel remaining essentially faithful (until next week's exciting episode, presumably) and also to introduce the Numenorian colonisation of Middle earth.
Once again, they seem to connect the dots differently than I expected, but to produce more or less the same result.
I liked the discovery of Mithril etc.
Someone suggested earlier that it was odd how the dwarves had other kings than just a succession of Durins, but that seems sensible to me.
Although there is essentially but one Durin, constantly reincarnated, he would have to start each reincarnation as a child, and unable to rule.
In much the same way as the Dali Lama is reborn at the moment of his death but is unable to do much until he has grown up and relearnt the ways of the world.
I believe also that Thorin, and Thrain and Thror (and others) before him were descendants of Durin, and presumably, at some point, someone in that line would be recognised as the new Durin.
In the mean time the 3 (+) Ts above (and then Dain) would rule.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

But what makes you think that Galadriel had obviously not seen or looked into a palantir before? I don't know the exact number of them that were made, but there were several, and at the time of this series they were many thousands of years old, originally invented in the Undying Lands by Feanor. In all the thousands of years that she has lived, is it so unlikely Galadriel would have encountered one before?

Is it because she looked taken aback and hesitated? But that might be a logical reaction if she has looked into one of the stones before and been appalled by what she saw. Miriel took her first reaction to mean that she was not familiar with the stones, and kindly explained what Galadriel might, in fact, already know.

One thing that annoys me about the characters in the show is the way that so many of them feel moved to talk to Galadriel like she is a child and they are the wise elders. But she is literally older than the sun and the moon. She has learned from the Valar, and from Melian, the maia, and of course from her own many experiences. So while Galadriel might be impulsive, she is also wise.

No wonder she often comes across as grumpy. Imagine the irritation of constantly being lessoned and condescended to by people whose lifetimes compared to hers are as mayflies to you and I.

I agree with you about the Durins. I don't believe Tolkien ever actually said that Durin the Deathless was actually reincarnated. (I am too tired and ill at the moment to look it up. Maybe someone else will be kind enough to do that and clear up that point.) It's my impression that this was simply stated as a belief that the dwarves of Kazad-dum had, or a story that they spread to other peoples.


I was surprised that they gave us a glimpse of what the destruction of Numenor will look like. But by the time it actually happens in some future season, I suppose we will have forgotten exactly how it looked, and also I imagine it will be depicted on a much grander scale than in any of the visions in this week's episode. At least I hope they have merely whetted our appetites, and not spoiled what should be some of the most exciting moments in the series.

 

[ctg]

also to introduce the Numenorian colonisation of Middle earth.

WHAT? The clips that I saw from Numenorian people don't reflect the high Atlantian culture ... if they had the Palantir. Like I said before, it's one of the remaining symbols that remain of their culture in the Middle-Earth that still works as intended after thousands of years.

If I look at it with Engineers eyes Palantirs are marvels, and an example of what their culture were able to produce. Tiny pieces of evidence that suggest that they had so much more in Numenor than what RoP had shown, and then there are a Silmarils. Again if I look with engineers eyes, and apply a bit of SF author, they become ultimate energy tech.

In the Fantasy world, they are the ultimate expression of High Elven culture that again isn't shown in the show. To us it is a difficult one to write because Tolkien's (Son and Father) world is the best expression of it, that lends a lot from Kalevala and Kullervo. A lot of Finnish mythology character can be found in Tolkien world and the Elven sounds almost like Finnish, when it's talked in high notes.

The technology and the marvels that you'd expect to be seen in Atlantian Culture isn't there. Not even as the highest notes of Noldor race that Elves grew, while they still followed their God's commands.

Is this colonization going to be a peaceful and graceful, taking forever because they have all-the-time-in-the-world ... or is it going to be a Noldor invasion into the Orc land?

The illusion for the Noldor human race is their biblical ages. They have all the time to do whatever they need to do. And they get very advanced, and very skilful for putting their memoir in the key locations. You can see that in those tall statuses, especially in the Towers. But strangely also in Tolkien's hand drawn Middle-Earth map.

In the racial terms, they were a super culture that still is living in Aragon's veins as a genetic memory when LotR happens. Their writing, their art, their building or their technology weren't erased from the time. Tolkien Elves still remember them. Some of them went through that time, because it was all ruined with the Fall.

Is Amazon reaching that level world-building in their Numenor and all the people that were associated with it?

 

[svalbard]

Tolkien lore aside this was a solid episode. It had the feeling of an episode that was putting the final pieces together for the run into the finale...Balrog in Khazzad-Dum

Still convinced Hal will become a Ring Wraith.

Actually all the new characters are pretty good. Really like Arondir. The forest scene was excellent.

Is Adar Sauron? Don't think so as he is supposed to be in Numenor in this period. Or am I wrong on that.

Also a question on geography. Is where the orcs are tunneling the creation of Morder?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

No. Sauron is supposed to go to Numenor during the reign of the next king, who will bring him there (and whose name I won't mention as it may provide a spoiler for some reading here).

What interests me especially about this episode, and what I would enjoy hearing about, is what everyone thinks about Adar's scars, seeing that he appears to be an elf, yet earlier in the series Arondir told Bronwyn that elven bodies tend to naturally heal themselves of their wounds (I have to assume he means non-mortal injuries, otherwise none of the elves who died in the various wars would have suffered bodily death at all) and that instead of apothecaries and medicine the elves have artificers who create beauty to heal the souls of those who have been injured.

So what kind of injury would fail to kill an elf and yet leave him scarred? A magical injury? An elf who had not had his spirit healed?

Tolkien said that Morgoth made the orcs by kidnapping elves and twisting and torturing them until they were changed into the orc and goblin shapes we are familiar with. Further, that Morgoth hadn't the power to create new life, but merely to twist and mock what Iluvatar alone could have given life. Thus, orcs were made in mockery of the elves, trolls in mockery of the ents, etc.

But Adar is not an orc ... or is he? Obviously we don't have enough information yet to come up with a definite answer, but would anyone like to share their guesses?

 

[farntfar]

Thank you, Teresa, for correcting me. I had forgotten that the Palentiri were made by Feanor (*), and that the master stone is still in Tirion. (As Gandalf explains to Pippin, I think, on the way to Minas Tirith, I think.) Galadriel had probably seen that one, if no other.
It's the rhyme about "Seven stars and seven stones, and one white tree." that made me limit my thinking to purely the Numenorian stones.

* Gandalf said that the Palentiri were created by the Noldor of old, in Valinor, "Feanor himself, maybe."
I sometimes wonder whether attaching all great inventions to Feanor is a bit like attaching all great sayings to Confucious (who we now think never existed except as a generic term) or to Buddha. It's just easier that way. There must have been other clever elves.

Another question I've often asked myself. On the question of orcs being twisted elves. Does that mean that they too are immortal? Do they have a place in Mandos if they are killed? And how do they breed?

Perhaps Adar is a less twisted orc, or even Morgoth's VP in charge of twisting services.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

What interests me especially about this episode, and what I would enjoy hearing about, is what everyone thinks about Adar's scars, seeing that he appears to be an elf, yet earlier in the series Arondir told Bronwyn that elven bodies tend to naturally heal themselves of their wounds (I have to assume he means non-mortal injuries, otherwise none of the elves who died in the various wars would have suffered bodily death at all) and that instead of apothecaries and medicine the elves have artificers who create beauty to heal the souls of those who have been injured.

So what kind of injury would fail to kill an elf and yet leave him scarred? A magical injury? An elf who had not had his spirit healed?

But Adar is not an orc ... or is he? Obviously we don't have enough information yet to come up with a definite answer, but would anyone like to share their guesses?

I've seen educated guesses that it could be Maeglin. He's a dark elf who betrayed his kin, was born in Beleriand and during the fall of Gondolin fell from it's walls into flame. That would be amazing, especially considering his connection to Earendil and potential to cross paths with Elrond but considering how fast and loose the showrunners have been with the lore they have access too I think that would be giving them far too much credit, so I expect it to be an original character though perhaps based on Maeglin's fall.

They probably don't have the rights to use Maeglin anyway if I'm being generous, as I'm unclear as to whether or not he appears in the appendices they do hold the rights too. It must be a tricky tightrope to manage as to what they can and can't allude too for fear of being sued.

 

[Vince W]

Episode 4 is a mixed bag. The political rant about ‘damn forn’rs stealing our jobs’ was cringy. Galadriel is schooled by a criminal and then a very cats in the cradle sequence with Elrond and with Durin.

Galadriel is difficult to feel anything for. One moment she's all wise and mysterious and the next she's off on a rant insulting the people she needs to help her.

It also seems they are trying to have too much intrigue. Everything and everyone is mysterious so they can ramp up the paranoia. Nobody trusts anyone and everyone is out for themselves. It's kind of boring.

At least there were no Harfoots (Harfeet?) under foot.

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

In many ways Episode IV suffered from the the flaws seeded in the previous chapter. I'm a little disappointed because I thought the series was off to a strong start after the first two episodes, but more and more I get the feeling that the strong punches the showrunners managed to deliver initially were simply to numb us into what is otherwise a rather generic Fantasy show.

I dislike Numenor. Immensely. I care not one bit for its production design which makes it look like a cheap knockoff of a Disneyfied Atlantis- and I get that this is the prime influence behind it, but there's such a thing as wearing your influences on your sleeve to a fault. Sorry I'm just repeating what I already said in my quick review of Episode 3, but the digital matte paintings and VFX sets give me a cartoon vibe, it just screams fake to me and is in no way immersive. The rest of the show's sets manage to give the appearance of a real, lived-in world, but all the sets in Numenor, both indoors and outdoors, feel like... well, what they are: a fake world generated with Photoshop Brushes or too much plastic. None of the characters seem to really belong there, none of the actors seem to have spent more than three minutes there before the cameras started rolling. Everything feels stiff, cold, far too polished.

Perhaps as a consequence of this, but not only, I find it difficult to care about anything that happens there. The closest I've come to caring was in Episode 3, when Galadriel and Isildur's father (I find it hard to call him anything else) go for their little escapade to the archives, minus the slow-mo horseriding on the beach which looked like a bad life insurance commercial. Is it the writing? I'd be curious to know if we owe all the scenes in Numenor to the same writer. The dialogue often seems off, especially whenever someone addresses a crowd. Or it's the acting maybe. I find some of the actors (the guy playing... "Pharazôn" according to Google) completely insufferable.

Anyway I cannot wait for Galadriel to finally set sail and leave Numenor behind, hoping that the poor dialogue, characterization and sometimes, yes, even the acting that have plagued nearly every scene set there will remain a distant memory and not follow her to Middle-Earth.

One thing that annoys me about the characters in the show is the way that so many of them feel moved to talk to Galadriel like she is a child and they are the wise elders. But she is literally older than the sun and the moon. She has learned from the Valar, and from Melian, the maia, and of course from her own many experiences. So while Galadriel might be impulsive, she is also wise.

I agree with the observation but in my opinion the problem has absolutely nothing to do with the way other characters behave and everything to do with how she's written. After all, people condescending to a young-looking woman was and often still is the norm in our societies. The problem is that the showrunners themselves mischaracterize her by turning her into a child. She's naive, stubborn and impulsive when she should be poised, eloquent and patient. When I see and hear her on screen, I see nothing that would suggest she's over 25 years old. She tries to project calm and confidence but she is constantly boiling inside like some impatient child on December 23rd. She may have the memories of millennia-old events, but only to the extent that a good history student would after poring over the manuscripts of some prestigious library.

I still think the actor is doing great, but now I think she's doing it in spite of what she's given. Which is no small achievement of course.

As far as the rest of the episode was concerned, I enjoyed the scenes at the orc camp and those of the humans fleeing their lands to shelter at the watchtower with the subplot linked to... is it Sauron's sword then? And that's it. I'm still wondering whether the scenes between Elrond and Durin served any purpose beyond giving us a fleeting glimpse of a nugget of Mithril. No more than a cheap easter egg, and quite the flimsy pay-off after enduring so many convoluted set pieces and meandering dialogue. And the unbearable smirk that never seems to leave Elrond's face. For the last 15 minutes of the episode I even found myself googling some odd things on my phone to pass the time, something I never ever do when I watch a movie or a show.

And since I'm not too sure how to conclude this post and have some work waiting for me, I'll end my review with some grades. If episodes 1 and 2 were a solid 7/10, 3 and 4 couldn't be more than a 4. Which makes for a very average show so far. We need better!

 

[farntfar]

I hadn't considered the Numenor set to be a sort of quasi-Disney, but I do find that there are far too many giant statues.
On my way to work I used to pass through a town where the people had a competition each year to have the most Christmas lights in their front garden from the beginning of December. (You know the sort of thing, life size sleighs on the roof and giant gnomes and reindeer etc.) It was really ugly.

This is a middle earth version of the same thing.
Numenor has taken the statues in the films of Elendil and Isildur on the Anduin and flooded the area with poor but bigger copies all over the bay.
It just makes the place look cheap.

As for Galadriel, I'm not sure that she can't be 4000 (?) years old and still be behaving like a frightened girl.
I am retired and still often feel and act like a lost teenager. It's probably the same for an elf. And remember, in Numenor she is still a trespasser looked down on by the local authority figures.

 

[jd73]

I'm only part way through the episode so I'm going to skim over the comments but I just came here to say: I loved Adar's nod to Col. Kurtz / Apocalypse Now!

"Númenor don't surf..."
Well, perhaps they do now

 

[therapist]

As someone who knows nothing of the lore, it's feeling increasingly like most of the show is flying over my head. I don't know what ring wraiths are, or blue wizards, why numenor is a big deal, and have no reason to believe that anyone will turn out to be Sauron, and wouldn't really understand the importance if it occurs. But those mysteries and potential future reveals seem to be important, so I feel like i'm missing a lot.

The Galadrial character is doing nothing for me. But I can't get enough of the dwarvin scenes. Elrond and Durins friendship has been my favourite part of this show, I wish we got more of them, and Disa (the wife). All of their scenes seem to concentrate more on the characters. Same with the Harfoots, I'm enjoying Nori and her secret wizard friend. Probably because it feels familiar to the movies which I loved, so without knowing much of the world, the Harfoots give me an easy onramp into the show.

 

[farntfar]

I'm very pleased to read your comments, @therapist.
It's easy for many of us to assume in these discussions that we are all Tolkien fans of many years standing, who have read everything that he's written, whether published during his life, or later by his inheritors.
But it's clear that many of the viewers of the series are going to be people who have read none of it and have either seen the Peter Jackson films or maybe have not even that to refer to.
So, I hope you'll continue to post your viewpoint to these threads.

It's true. Without some background why should you have any real feeling for Galadriel, (although she was in the film) or any understanding of the ring wraiths.
I myself, despite considering myself reasonably knowledgeable about it all, knew that there were more wizards about which we knew basically nothing, but had no idea they were blue.
The program makers are walking a difficult path, trying to satisfy people with all levels of expertise on Tolkien's world, varying from self-described experts to complete newbies with mos of us somewhere in-between. They can't assume that the viewers know anything, but equally don't want to bore the experts. (Or even worse contradict them/us on something we think we know.)

 

[Elckerlyc]

The program makers are walking a difficult path, trying to satisfy people with all levels of expertise on Tolkien's world, varying from self-described experts to complete newbies with mos of us somewhere in-between. They can't assume that the viewers know anything, but equally don't want to bore the experts. (Or even worse contradict them/us on something we think we know.)

This is what ails this show. They should have concentrated on one of these parties; the experts ('lore-ites') or the newbies. This is something in-between that satisfies nobody. Unless you are a newbie who wants to know more and does some digging on the Internet... but than soon realises that there is a lot of the story and background/history that is being omitted and suddenly finds himself in the other group. Not exactly an expert, but still too knowledgeable.
Because they tell too little and explain not enough the story lacks a certain tension or building of expectation.
I am still appreciating it, but it could have been so much better with some decent writing.
Anyway, I will continue writing reviews and try to add some details here and there if things probably are unclear or confusing for the 'ignorant' viewer. Perhaps it helps.
Unfortunately I'm a few episodes lagging...

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

As someone who knows nothing of the lore, it's feeling increasingly like most of the show is flying over my head. I don't know what ring wraiths are, or blue wizards, why numenor is a big deal, and have no reason to believe that anyone will turn out to be Sauron, and wouldn't really understand the importance if it occurs. But those mysteries and potential future reveals seem to be important, so I feel like i'm missing a lot.

You're not, really, missing much, not yet. Much of what people are discussing in these threads has not come up in the series as of halfway through the first season, and may never do so. You don't need to know about some of those things, may never need to know about them to understand the series, and therefore the scriptwriters have, wisely, not mentioned them. (Other things, in my personal opinion, they should have mentioned or at least explained more clearly. But that's a whole different discussion.)

For instance, the Blue Wizards. They may not appear in this series at all, for all the speculation by viewers that the Stranger may be one of them. (I will also mention that a lot of what people are talking about here and elsewhere may not come from the books or the movies —that is, these things are mentioned in the books and/or movies —but for many people interest may have been sparked by encountering them in video games based on Tolkien's work, with lots of details invented by the games' designers. And knowing what there is to know about the Blue Wizards—even should one or both of them turn up in this series— might not make you much wiser, since Tolkien said so little about them. Of course what they may have been up to in video games, someone like me who knows quite a bit of the lore but has never played any of the games, could not even begin to guess.)

The ringwraiths are the Black Riders, also known as the Nazgul, from The Lord of the Rings (books and movies, and probably a great many video games as well). Although in the books they are not called Nazgul until they take to the air atop their monstrous beasts. But you don't need to remember any of that from the movies just yet, because for the series they won't exist until the rings of power are actually forged (likely not in this first season) and Sauron has given nine of them to mortal men, who will eventually (it never says how long in the books) be turned into wraiths/Nazgul.

Naturally, a lot of the people posting in these threads are curious about who those nine men (and maybe women) will be. Are they characters we have met in the first half of season one? Characters we will shortly meet? Individuals we may not meet for a few seasons, and never will know well at all before Sauron traps them with his nasty rings? Naturally it will be more dramatic if they are characters we've been acquainted with for several episodes and feel some sympathy toward, which makes it seem like that will be the most likely thing to happen. So participants in these discussions are interested to know which of their favorite (or unfavorite) characters these will be. As of this point, though, there have been few human characters seen in prominent roles, and with some of those, we already know via the Prologue in "The Fellowship of the Ring" movie what their ultimate fates will be, ruling them out. At this time, a lot of that particular discussion therefore centers around a couple of characters, Halbrand and Theo, both original characters for the series, so if you have been watching all of the episodes to date you know as much about them and how easily (or not) they could be corrupted as the most expert Tolkien expert on the internet.

Sauron was the Dark Lord in the LOTR movie trilogy, seldom seen, and when he was it was only (possibly metaphorically) as a giant fiery eye atop a black tower. All you need to know is that he is the baddest of all possible bad guys by the time the second age rolls around, but as of the beginning of the series he has been lying low for a few centuries and some of the characters choose to believe he is gone for good. But again, if you've seen the prologue in "The Fellowship of the Ring", it's no such luck. He'll be along soon. What you might not know is that before ... certain events we also expect to be seeing in a season or so ... he was a shape changer. Thus, at this point he could be any of the new characters, though some are more likely than others. In these discussions people are amusing themselves by guessing who. (In fact he may not be any of these characters.)

So, all I can say is, if you don't know something that sounds important because other people are discussing it there are three (not mutually exclusive) possibilities: 1) it's not relevant to the story 2) it will be relevant to the story eventually but it hasn't been introduced yet because by the time it does become relevant most viewers would have forgotten it 3) maybe something did slip past you, but we can hope that by the time it becomes important there will be further hints and reminders.

But if there is anything you want explained, there is probably someone here who will be glad to give you an answer (possibly several someones, though in that case there might be several contradictory answers).

Maybe we need a thread that explains some of the important information that the prologue to this series leaves out. Someone (maybe me, since I a moderator, though not usually involved in the TV forum) could give a bit of background information, and after that people who have questions could ask them there, and those who have the answers could respond. Would there be enough interest? Would it make understanding/enjoying the series easier? I mean, the series really ought to be able to stand on its own, but it's not going to be allowed to stand on its own, what with all the news and magazine and internet articles giving information and opinions, Youtube videos where Tolkien fans share what they know (or think they know—I mean, some of them are quite expert, but that is not true of all of them), and the lore that inevitably gets brought up in these discussions to back up our various opinions. So if people are confused by all this, would it help to a have a centralized place to look for information to clear some things up?

 

[svalbard]

As for Galadriel, I'm not sure that she can't be 4000 (?) years old and still be behaving like a frightened girl.
I am retired and still often feel and act like a lost teenager. It's probably the same for an elf. And remember, in Numenor she is still a trespasser looked down on by the local authority figures.

I fully agree with you on that sentiment. At 50 I still act impulsively and have irrational fears.

The thing is though that Galadriel's fears are not irrational. She of everyone still believes the war is not finished. She has seen the destruction in her long life and for that reason I think her actions are in keeping.

 

[pogopossum]

The comment below (from Den of Geek) best reflects my reaction to #4.
"As was the case in previous episodes, this hour is incredibly beautiful to look at, but moves at the pace of your average glacier. The series is still suffering from a chronic lack of anything actually happening. We meet the mysterious Adar and then he disappears again for most of the episode. Theo is still toying with turning to the Dark Side. Prince Durin is going to go to Lindon but he hasn’t left yet. The Númenoreans have decided to accompany Galadriel to go and help the Southlands, but they haven’t left yet. The Harfoots and Probably-Gandalf didn’t even appear in this episode."

There are developments, as described above by several posters, but they are mostly of interest to those who know what they presage.
The Flood, the Numenoreans deciding for war, orcs building and killing. All of which leads to - - -.
Which whets the appetite of those who know what is coming, or remember what Tolkien wrote in his original texts. Dramatizing the buildup with non-textual action is necessary when translating from one media to another, particularly when you don't have full rights to the original, but as presented is a sloooow process.

 

[therapist]

What you might not know is that before ... certain events we also expect to be seeing in a season or so ... he was a shape changer.

By shape changer does that mean he can take the form of other beings? Is that limited to humans?

All you need to know is that he is the baddest of all possible bad guys by the time the second age rolls around

What exactly did he do that was so bad?

I did actually try and watch some videos to come up to date with the lore, but turns out the lore runs pretty deep. At least I know enough not to expect a Sauron redemption arc in this series. But who knows.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Is that limited to humans?

No. For instance in the first age there is one story where he takes on the shape of a wolf.

What exactly did he do that was so bad?

Just about every form of evil you can think of, on a grand scale. Torture and murder for example. Spread misery and widespread disaster with a generous hand.

At least I know enough not to expect a Sauron redemption arc in this series. But who knows.

He tried to pretend remorse before, claimed to be reformed. Those who believed him once know better than to believe him again.