Indiana Jones And The Dial of Destiny (2023)

[KGeo777]

I had read the book and the comic before seeing the movie but the Ark angels were a surprise. i knew about the melting faces but not the Ark angels.
They said the issue with Indiana Jones is that in fact--he is kind of McGuffin himself because he has no real purpose in the story since--if the Ark was opened anywhere, it would probably do the same thing.
But there's another problem--why would Hitler want it since it is not Aryan in origin? You could say that he only wanted it to lock away--so they couldn't use it against him. Hedging his bets.
But the Ark is like the Gorgon's head--Belloq should have known that it would be bad to tangle with. I am trying to understand--from his perspective, why he would think he could benefit from it. For him it's a religious thing.

Putting too much thought into this especially since when they made the original--they left Marion on the island and had to reshoot the ending sequence.

 

[BT Jones]

I agree that Empire was a real departure.

But you are forgetting a lot of space flying scenes, shootouts with Stormtroopers in Cloud City and a bit of a sword fight that went on for 10 minutes.

Yes, there are plenty of isolated action sequences, but it's the lack of 'epicness' that makes them special. The Hoth invasion aside, Luke's injury and rescue is a small-scale struggle, as is Luke's entire Dagobah experience. The Falcon in the asteroid field is a one-ship escape. The cloud City shoot-out is a small scale rescue attempt. Then there's obviously the one-on-one lightsaber showdown. But they are all thrilling for what they represent in terms of stakes for the characters.

I know we are getting off-topic here, but the point I am making is, as long Indy 5 is true to the characters, and tries to tell a compelling story without too much forced comedy of silliness (nuked fridges, Shia La Beouf swinging with the apes) then this will hopefully be a good movie.

After what James Mangold did with Logan, I am hopeful.

 

[BAYLOR]

I had read the book and the comic before seeing the movie but the Ark angels were a surprise. i knew about the melting faces but not the Ark angels.
They said the issue with Indiana Jones is that in fact--he is kind of McGuffin himself because he has no real purpose in the story since--if the Ark was opened anywhere, it would probably do the same thing.
But there's another problem--why would Hitler want it since it is not Aryan in origin? You could say that he only wanted it to lock away--so they couldn't use it against him. Hedging his bets.
But the Ark is like the Gorgon's head--Belloq should have known that it would be bad to tangle with. I am trying to understand--from his perspective, why he would think he could benefit from it. For him it's a religious thing.

Putting too much thought into this especially since when they made the original--they left Marion on the island and had to reshoot the ending sequence.

I don't think Belloq truly understood the dangers posed by opening the Ark.

 

[Swank]

I had read the book and the comic before seeing the movie but the Ark angels were a surprise. i knew about the melting faces but not the Ark angels.
They said the issue with Indiana Jones is that in fact--he is kind of McGuffin himself because he has no real purpose in the story since--if the Ark was opened anywhere, it would probably do the same thing.
But there's another problem--why would Hitler want it since it is not Aryan in origin? You could say that he only wanted it to lock away--so they couldn't use it against him. Hedging his bets.
But the Ark is like the Gorgon's head--Belloq should have known that it would be bad to tangle with. I am trying to understand--from his perspective, why he would think he could benefit from it. For him it's a religious thing.

Putting too much thought into this especially since when they made the original--they left Marion on the island and had to reshoot the ending sequence.

The McGuffin thing is misstated. We're told in the beginning that the Ark need only be carried in front of the army to win. Jones' tenacity and knowledge allowed him to secure the Ark after the Belloq melted, but before another U-boat showed up.

Belloq is just like Jones - he might be following the rights to talk to God, but his interest is still largely academic. He sees the Ark as technology.


I don't think astrology and dowsing are "Aryan" either, but were beloved by upper level Nazis. Despite rejecting Christianity, the Germans still likely saw themselves as the descendants of the Western Christian culture - which includes the events of the Old Testament. You don't have to believe in the religion to believe that a magic device exists.

 

[KGeo777]

The McGuffin thing is misstated. We're told in the beginning that the Ark need only be carried in front of the army to win. Jones' tenacity and knowledge allowed him to secure the Ark after the Belloq melted, but before another U-boat showed up.

Belloq is just like Jones - he might be following the rights to talk to God, but his interest is still largely academic. He sees the Ark as technology.


I don't think astrology and dowsing are "Aryan" either, but were beloved by upper level Nazis. Despite rejecting Christianity, the Germans still likely saw themselves as the descendants of the Western Christian culture - which includes the events of the Old Testament. You don't have to believe in the religion to believe that a magic device exists.

That was Brody's interpretation--that any army can use it. He had no way of verifying that. I don't even know where that idea of using the Ark would come from. The Philistines took it. But didn't do them any good. The Old Testament is pretty clear that only the Israelites have the edge. Everyone else-too bad.
Belloq did a religious ceremony over it. He thinks he can use it to talk to God but they don't really make that clear. Maybe it is an ego thing with him--that he sees himself as having the first shot at this object and so he wants to parade himself as the big shot. Obviously he is insincere--that's pretty clear. They hired him to find it but it wasn't a lifelong quest.

Your last point-- but Hitler is the one who is said to want the Ark (though you can assume that is false information from the official who said it--the book makes it clear though). Did he believe in the Bible?
The swastika --is that aryan as a symbol but used by Indians etc.

 

[BAYLOR]

That was Brody's interpretation--that any army can use it. He had no way of verifying that. I don't even know where that idea of using the Ark would come from. The Philistines took it. But didn't do them any good. The Old Testament is pretty clear that only the Israelites have the edge. Everyone else-too bad.
Belloq did a religious ceremony over it. He thinks he can use it to talk to God but they don't really make that clear. Maybe it is an ego thing with him--that he sees himself as having the first shot at this object and so he wants to parade himself as the big shot. Obviously he is insincere--that's pretty clear. They hired him to find it but it wasn't a lifelong quest.

Your last point-- but Hitler is the one who is said to want the Ark (though you can assume that is false information from the official who said it--the book makes it clear though). Did he believe in the Bible?
The swastika --is that aryan as a symbol but used by Indians etc.

Swastika is also found in places Burma , China and Iran .

 

[Swank]

That was Brody's interpretation--that any army can use it. He had no way of verifying that. I don't even know where that idea of using the Ark would come from. The Philistines took it. But didn't do them any good. The Old Testament is pretty clear that only the Israelites have the edge. Everyone else-too bad.

I don't think it is necessarily any army, just that it gave at least one army great powers and it might give the Germans one as well. There were no Israelites in 1936, so the punishment the Philistines received to force them to give it back might not apply. Anyway, why not give it a try if you're interested in conquering the world? It brought down the walls of Jericho.

Your last point-- but Hitler is the one who is said to want the Ark (though you can assume that is false information from the official who said it--the book makes it clear though). Did he believe in the Bible?
The swastika --is that aryan as a symbol but used by Indians etc.

The book was written after the movie. The script had nothing about that. Regardless, many Nazi leaders were into occult stuff, and getting an Ark for the Reich is essentially getting it for the Furher. As far as believing in the Bible - lots of people who are not religious believe that many of the stories written in there happened in some fashion. The Ark could be a powerful occult object for reasons that have nothing to do with the Israelites who first possessed it, for instance.

The swastika is a classic symbol for the Germanic god Thor. And its global popularity as a religious symbol is just the sort of thing that would make a kooky Nazi believe that magic totems from the Middle East, America, Tibet, whatever would work for them.

So I found the whole set up reasonable. More so than any other lost magic trinket.

 

[KGeo777]

Well I still think it is a little dumb because I assume that people familiar with the Bible knew it was an artifact of the Israelites and Hitler's views on that subject was well-known so at least they could have had a line or something to explain that--if they wanted to be smarter about it. Then again they also have Hitler planning for war by 1936 so what's the point asking for realism.
Why did they pick 1936--they could have picked 1939, 1940...

 

[Swank]

Well I still think it is a little dumb because I assume that people familiar with the Bible knew it was an artifact of the Israelites and Hitler's views on that subject was well-known so at least they could have had a line or something to explain that--if they wanted to be smarter about it. Then again they also have Hitler planning for war by 1936 so what's the point asking for realism.
Why did they pick 1936--they could have picked 1939, 1940...

Hitler let a Jewish family friend emigrate to the US in 1940. Clearly he was okay with contradiction.

Germany began gearing up for war in 1934. 1936 was the year Germany invaded Rhineland and denounced the treaty of Versailles. What do you mean?

 

[KGeo777]

Roosevelt told the French ambassador in 1933 that Hitler is a madman. ROTLA doesn't show any direct US intelligence intervention in German interests - they don't even show them paying for Indy's tickets. The only things the government does is have some FBI or army signal corps guys under the Roosevelt administration make inquiries about intercepted cables. Which is about right for the time and the concerns of the president.

I don't know what that has to do with The Final Countdown. Are you saying that Lawrence Kasden could not possibly have thought that US intelligence in 1936 would have been watching Germany carefully? That's a strange claim.

I know he told American mothers that their sons would not be in a war--yet he funded recruitment increases by 1940-the film Buck Privates which was made before Pearl Harbor shows that---"join the army! It's a lot of laughs and music"-so yeah he wanted a war. He didn't want peace. It's no secret really. Lindbergh challenged him on that all the time.
But Raiders does suggest direct US involvement in it. Indiana Jones is an agent for the government. He's getting paid to go. It's either the government or the university. He was paid by the government--they mention at the end.

 

[Swank]

But Raiders does suggest direct US involvement in it. Indiana Jones is an agent for the government. He's getting paid to go. It's either the government or the university. He was paid by the government--they mention at the end.

There is no mention in the script for Raiders that he was paid by the government in advance for his actions. Novelizations aren't the film itself.

There may be something said about compensation for the Ark. But that didn't retroactively make Indy a US agent.

 

[KGeo777]

There is no mention in the script for Raiders that he was paid by the government in advance for his actions. Novelizations aren't the film itself.

There may be something said about compensation for the Ark. But that didn't retroactively make Indy a US agent.

You do see someone escorting him to the plane and at the end he says "the money's fine" so he is working for the government.
Whether he is paid in advance or not doesn't matter-I doubt very much he paid for the flight to Nepal out of pocket since he needed money to go to Marrakesh which he didn't have.

 

[Swank]

You do see someone escorting him to the plane and at the end he says "the money's fine" so he is working for the government.
Whether he is paid in advance or not doesn't matter-I doubt very much he paid for the flight to Nepal out of pocket since he needed money to go to Marrakesh which he didn't have.

The money that's fine is a settlement, not pay.

The person following him to the plane is a German spy.

 

[BAYLOR]

There is no mention in the script for Raiders that he was paid by the government in advance for his actions. Novelizations aren't the film itself.

There may be something said about compensation for the Ark. But that didn't retroactively make Indy a US agent.

In Raiders they walkabout the Pharaoh Shishak taking the Ark of covenant and bring it to Tanis which was swallowed by the desert. The problem is, its there is no hard historical evidence that he did.

 

[KGeo777]

The money that's fine is a settlement, not pay.

The person following him to the plane is a German spy.

No-you see him talking to some guys when he is boarding the plane.

 

[JunkMonkey]

Your going to get my topic locked. Let tay away from politics. Please.

Fine by me. But this is history not contemporary politics. Not talking about WW2 without mentioning the fact that the Nazis and their sympathisers were the bad guys (and WHY) is going to be a bit of a problem.

"I hate those guys... because of their dress sense?"

 

[Alex The G and T]

On a lighter note. Is Harry too old for this schtuff?

 

[Brian G Turner]

But this is history not contemporary politics.

No, it's a discussion thread about Indiana Jones, and that's all this thread should be. I've therefore removed the posts about American fascism.

 

[BAYLOR]

On a lighter note. Is Harry too old for this schtuff?

View attachment 96664

How about Raiders of the Lost Assisted Living Facility.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I'm glad this is the last Indy movie. Other than as a money-making exercise, there was no need to extend the series to more than a trilogy, with Last Crusade being the perfect way to round off his adventures.

I don't know how this pan out; it has to be better than Crystal Skull, but it surely can't come close to the first three movies.

Like with Star Wars, this will - for me at least - always remain a trilogy, just like Star Wars (with the caveat that Rogue One and A New Hope class as parts 1 and 2 of the same movie). BTTF knew when to stop, it's a shame that the likes of Jaws, Halloween, Elm Street, Star Wars, Rambo, Rocky, Indy etc etc did not.