Imagining the world as a better place - how common in fantasy as compared to sf? (And I don't mean winning the battle against dark armies.)

[Montero]

I guess I'm not sure what we're talking about. A lot of SFF has some sort of "good place" depicted, but the plots are more often about the mortal danger to the characters because something is changing or they left home or are trying to get to that place. LOTR is about the restoration of the good kingdoms. But it is a violent war story.

What I am talking about is fantasies where changes are wrought without going to war, there isn't any mortal danger for the entire society and the changes are for the good of many, not just the side that won a battle. Some science fiction has elements of that in either in the world building or directly in the plot, a desire to make positive changes, often through small incremental changes, by science, negotiation, organization.
I was initially curious to see if there is much of that in fantasy, as my impression was not, and yes, I'd love to know titles if there are any out there. My ideal is that the tone is towards warmth and friendship, at least a chunk of the time (everyone has a bad day here and there).

BTW earlier mentioned Kirstein in the context of fantasy. They are actually low tech sf that reads like a fantasy until those plot elements come through. I have filed them mentally under fantasy which is wrong.

 

[Swank]

What I am talking about is fantasies where changes are wrought without going to war, there isn't any mortal danger for the entire society and the changes are for the good of many, not just the side that won a battle. Some science fiction has elements of that in either in the world building or directly in the plot, a desire to make positive changes, often through small incremental changes, by science, negotiation, organization.
I was initially curious to see if there is much of that in fantasy, as my impression was not, and yes, I'd love to know titles if there are any out there. My ideal is that the tone is towards warmth and friendship, at least a chunk of the time (everyone has a bad day here and there).

BTW earlier mentioned Kirstein in the context of fantasy. They are actually low tech sf that reads like a fantasy until those plot elements come through. I have filed them mentally under fantasy which is wrong.

Given that magic and swords are the tools of coercion, I wonder what would make your idea work as fantasy? Fantastic beasts? Weird physics?

 

[Montero]

Given that magic and swords are the tools of coercion, I wonder what would make your idea work as fantasy? Fantastic beasts? Weird physics?

Um. This thread started with Victoria Goddard's Lays of the Hearth Fire series, which are already functional fantasy books so it is not my idea per se and the ideas already work.

Also, why are you describing magic as a tool of coercion? Swords are not just aggression they can be protection. And why are you bringing up tools of coercion anyway? As I've said, I'm enquiring about fantasy books in a similar vein to Goddards, which are not all about big battles and violence, but are about achieving ends through other means, humans means, organization etc as said above. Lays of the Hearth Fire definitely has magic in it, and gods make the odd appearance - more in the second book - but a central part of the story is about human society being reorganized into better functionality.

I am beginning to wonder if your concept of fantasy and mine are not that similar - have you read any fantasy that doesn't include battles and a Medieval setting?

 

[Swank]

Um. This thread started with Victoria Goddard's Lays of the Hearth Fire series, which are already functional fantasy books so it is not my idea per se and the ideas already work.

I apologize for using the wrong word. I meant "subject" or "OP".

Also, why are you describing magic as a tool of coercion? Swords are not just aggression they can be protection. And why are you bringing up tools of coercion anyway?

Magic is generally a significantly powerful unnatural force, which means that it holds sway over people that are threatened with its use or removal. Much like organized violence. I bring this up because "the world being a better place" implies that a populace attempts to make their society better through some sort of consensus effort. Bringing magic into that kind of process - even to encourage betterment - would be a type of coercion.

Magic could also be used to make a place more livable, or connected. But then you have the specter of losing that precious advantage should the spell go away. And that's a different kind of coercion.

Of course, a book can be "fantasy" for any reason. Maybe everyone has wings, or lives forever. But what makes a story fantasy usually has to have something to do with the plot, rather than window dressing. Which takes us back to the complication of making a better society as plot when a fantasy element is involved in the process.

I am beginning to wonder if your concept of fantasy and mine are not that similar - have you read any fantasy that doesn't include battles and a Medieval setting?

Sure. And I've read a lot SF that can be argued to be non-speculative fiction. And I've read fantasy that could be argued to be SF in disguise.

But I took your thread to be an invitation to discuss the subject, and my thinking was more about the difficulties of producing a lot of this kind of fiction rather than whether it is possible or not. Anything is possible in fiction. However, if your thread was just to list existing fiction, I apologize again for inserting my thoughts.

 

[Montero]

But I took your thread to be an invitation to discuss the subject, and my thinking was more about the difficulties of producing a lot of this kind of fiction rather than whether it is possible or not. Anything is possible in fiction. However, if your thread was just to list existing fiction, I apologize again for inserting my thoughts.

That is absolutely what I was looking for. I'm afraid I took your answers for someone saying "it can't be done because this is not what fantasy is". I am also looking for examples of books to read if there are any out there, as it is going to be well into next year before the next Goddard

What I am looking for is a discussion of the concept and also why it seems to occur a moderate amount of the time in sf but far less in fantasy. I am horribly busy today so after this quick before I start on the day post I won't be around for extensive postings for some hours. I'm already thinking about the complex world building of Goddard's book, including the various magics and powers and how this changed over the back story, and what made civil change possible at the time of the book.
With T Kingfisher's world of the White Rat, there is a set up of various gods/saints (and a very strange lot they are too, nothing traditional) and each order is effectively backed by the power of the saint/god plus some sharp politics on the part of the leader of the order. There is a degree of co-operation between most of the orders as they have common interests. This is in a city states and kingdoms maybe 18th century Europe level of settings, with a moderate slice of magic, but said magic is mostly wielded by intense nerd types who love building things and taking them apart, so not really the world dominating sorts - though might be employed by someone who'd want to. In the Clockwork duology there is an invasion that has to be stopped, and the Order of the White Rat doesn't make much of a showing. In Swordheart and the Paladin series there is no invasion and the Order and its work pops up a bit more. Not central to the plot like Cliopher the bureaucrat is in Hands, but the Order has an important minor role that gives a sense of decency to the book. The Order of the White Rat does have a legal system and city watches to enforce it. How much variation between the different nation or city states there is in terms of their legal system isn't highlighted. I do also think with the Order of the White Rat, that with them providing legal aid and medical care, the majority of the population will consider them important - as in let's not annoy them, I might need them one day.

See you later.

 

[hitmouse]

You could try Rumo by Walter Moers. OK it has some baddies and a few swordfights, but it is fundamentally about nice people building a pleasant, fair society.

I also suggest Lud-In-The-Mist by Hope Mirlees, which reads a bit like Jane Austin, and is about overcoming hypocrisy in society. Very little violence or death.

 

[Lostinspace]

Graydon Saunders Commonweal Series is a possible example. It starts and finishes with attacks on the Commonweal by external powers but it does have the story of how the Commonweal is a new departure from "the bad old days". The Commonweal is an attempt to create a society which uses sorcery without allowing sorcerers to enslave anyone else. Some sorcerers appreciate the advantages. I think that one called Halt remarks that nobody had tried to kill her for years and another called Wake mentions that he could teach necromancy to an able pupil without expecting them to kill him. There is also evidence that sorcery is becoming more effective due to publication and discussion of techniques.

 

[williamjm]

That got me to thinking. Redesigning society whether through resources or law or social engineering is quite a common theme in science fiction, whether the book starts in a re-imagined world or whether it is a work in progress - I can think of John Barnes (especially the series starting A million open doors) or Sheri Tepper or indeed there is a strong theme of that underlying the adventures in Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series. In fantasy there is often a theme of good vs evil whether it is overthrowing the invading orcs or fighting vampires and werewolves in dark alleys. But how many fantasies are there where good is achieved through making government more efficient, removing corruption, and doing public works from sewers to street lighting? I'd be interested in hearing about books like that. The third book in Lays of the Hearth Fire is going to be called "Common and Ordinary Goods" - which kind of sums it up.

I think there are some examples where the battle of Good vs Evil might be the main theme, but there are also characters who are very motivated to try to make a better society. Elendil in Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn would be one example.

The Empire Trilogy, mm yes, sort of see why you are including it. Years since I've read it. If I am remembering it correctly it is more about her household and immediate circle, rather than the wider world or do I have that completely wrong?

I think Mara starts off just trying to gain power for her family but as these series goes on she does become more motivated by the problems of the wider world, particularly in the final book where she is trying to curb the power of the Assembly over Tsurani society.

 

[The Big Peat]

@The Big Peat
Thank you for that. Funnily enough I've already read or tried everyone of those except Orconomics, The Traitor Baru and Neveryon and pessimistic and dark isn't what I'm looking for. Max Gladstone I tried one or two if I am correct

Spoiler: Query about plot item that is a spoiler

a god clinging to life in a small fragment of fire in a cigarette end ?.

The Empire Trilogy, mm yes, sort of see why you are including it. Years since I've read it. If I am remembering it correctly it is more about her household and immediate circle, rather than the wider world or do I have that completely wrong?

As WilliamJim said, the Empire Trilogy does reach wider as the series goes on. Probably not perfectly what you're thinking, more subplot than plot as it were, but in the neighbourhood.

Similarly in the neighbourhood might be Katherine Addison's The Goblin Emperor. Unexpected ascent interlinks with desire for societal reform.

 

[Montero]

Similarly in the neighbourhood might be Katherine Addison's The Goblin Emperor. Unexpected ascent interlinks with desire for societal reform.

I have tried to read it before and the opening was very grim - does it pick up in tone further in?

I have been writing a big screed to continue the discussion with @Swank as to what conditions are needed for this to work but not quite there yet. More unexpected things dropped in that had to be dealt with immediately.

 

[The Big Peat]

I have tried to read it before and the opening was very grim - does it pick up in tone further in?

I have been writing a big screed to continue the discussion with @Swank as to what conditions are needed for this to work but not quite there yet. More unexpected things dropped in that had to be dealt with immediately.

Yes, very much so. The abuse backdrop goes by fairly quick, and most of the book is Maia figuring out how the whole thing works and trying to make changes. As I said, neighbouring rather than the actual thing.



As for conditions... I think that almost overcomplicates things. All it takes is the action, surely? People trying to make the world better, not by battling imminent threats but by trying to make every day slightly better than the next through mostly peaceful means.

Swank asks how would it work as fantasy - I would turn the question on its head and ask why wouldn't it work as fantasy. The genre is very large, after all, and engagement with its conceits is very varied.

 

[Swank]

Swank asks how would it work as fantasy - I would turn the question on its head and ask why wouldn't it work as fantasy. The genre is very large, after all, and engagement with its conceits is very varied.

It isn't so much how it would work, but why the genre makes a good backdrop for that kind of story - given what fantasy readers expect to find.

A similar question about societal betterment could be asked about military fiction, superhero comics or detective novels. How much needs to be subverted about the fantasy setting to concentrate on a subject that runs counter to the use of power?

Or, how does one use the elements of fantasy to support a genuine feeling narrative about sociology? One easy answer is to embed your story in a world that has clearly fantastic origins, but relatively mundane function. The problem with that solution is that it isn't any different than what SF can create, or historical fiction.


Of course, I speak with the bias of believing that fantasy and SF are more than naval battles with spaceships or castle sieges with unicorns, so I want there to be an intrinsic reason they story needs to be SFF to be told well.

 

[Montero]

@Swank - maybe tomorrow I will post my essay with examples from Goddard and real history - will be interested what you thinks work and what doesn't. I wrote it on the laptop and need to transfer to PC and check through so it will be along at some point. Don't want you to think I am not wanting to discuss this it is just the season of Christmas emails, cooking, things.... I enjoyed thinking it all through and writing it out, so thank you for the questions.

 

[The Big Peat]

It isn't so much how it would work, but why the genre makes a good backdrop for that kind of story - given what fantasy readers expect to find.

A similar question about societal betterment could be asked about military fiction, superhero comics or detective novels. How much needs to be subverted about the fantasy setting to concentrate on a subject that runs counter to the use of power?

Or, how does one use the elements of fantasy to support a genuine feeling narrative about sociology? One easy answer is to embed your story in a world that has clearly fantastic origins, but relatively mundane function. The problem with that solution is that it isn't any different than what SF can create, or historical fiction.


Of course, I speak with the bias of believing that fantasy and SF are more than naval battles with spaceships or castle sieges with unicorns, so I want there to be an intrinsic reason they story needs to be SFF to be told well.

The first thing I'd say to that is I'm pretty sure there are fantasy readers who very much want to find this sort of story. There's a reason one of the hits of the year was Legends & Lattes, which is just an orc retires from adventuring and sets up a coffee shop. I know readers calling for Slice of Life, for relatable works with fantasy aesthetics, and so on. I know authors who've floated concepts like this and had people bouncing up and down with joy. There's a reason Hopepunk is taking off and yes, fantasy readers do want a part of it, and if you know where you're looking, there's stuff out there. I personally don't so my recs aren't great, but I know people a lot more into it than me. I'll ask and relay.

And the boundaries of the genre as currently set by such recent big hits as Piranesi - bloodless, literary, exploratory, weird; the women of myth fictional biography thing that Madeleine Miller started with Circe; Legends & Lattes as mentioned; as well as all the grimdark and epic fantasy and what not - I think a lot of fantasy readers expect to find a lot of things, and for the list to keep growing.


The second thing is I don't think "isn't any different to what X can create" isn't a reason for Y not to do something. It does not stop the creator or audience from taking joy and value out of it. I don't believe that an SFF story needs to have a reason to be SFF either. Fair enough if you do, nothing wrong with that, but there's no reason for others to go along with it.


The third thing is that me personally, looking for the elements of fantasy - I look at fantasy as mostly a body of stories about experiencing events so wildly out of our everyday that they are, in their way, sacred, and how people react and cope with them

Apply that to stories "where good is achieved through making government more efficient, removing corruption, and doing public works from sewers to street lighting" and "redesigning society whether through resources or law or social engineering"...

Fantasy is very well suited to all sorts of stories about culture clash, which is of course often part of the stories Montero references. Using fantastical races can provide healthy emotional distance for reading about it, using magic can can make difficult to grasp but real things into very easily understood real things for the story.

I think for a lot of people, meeting bureaucracy can be very confusing, very out of the everyday - which makes it a ripe target for reimagining into the bizarre laws of faerieland

And really, why can't a doctor or social worker or town planner or wasteman have the same out of the ordinary experience as a warrior or thief? The story is more dedicated to the latter because they're more fun, but that doesn't mean they're more true to the genre's potential.

 

[Swank]

The third thing is that me personally, looking for the elements of fantasy - I look at fantasy as mostly a body of stories about experiencing events so wildly out of our everyday that they are, in their way, sacred, and how people react and cope with them

How is that different from speculative fiction in general?

And let me be clear - I'm not against this kind of fantasy at all. I'm more just pointing out the structural challenges, which I find interesting.

I know readers calling for Slice of Life, for relatable works with fantasy aesthetics, and so on.

That's probably the thing I'm missing. I'm thinking about this top down - like Dune or Three Body. But it is much more like Banks' Inversions.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I would like to have read a 'Tales from the Shire' or something similar, where we got to see the further adventures of Sam, Rosie and their children, or perhaps further back about the Grand Took. Not adventures with swords and wizards, but just the usual drama of day to day living in the rolling hills of The Shire. I would so much have preferred this over reading the exploits of heroes in Silmarillion. Having said that, the thing that makes me interested in such a story is because I've read of the hobbits adventures in Middle-earth, so one naturally follows on from the other.

'Gentle' fantasy, with not much happening would (understandably) be a hard sell, but done on the back of a more adventurous novel, and the interest gained from it, it could work.

 

[AllanR]

further adventures of Sam, Rosie and their children

Little Hobbithole in the Shire?

 

[Vince W]

I would like to have read a 'Tales from the Shire' or something similar, where we got to see the further adventures of Sam, Rosie and their children, or perhaps further back about the Grand Took. Not adventures with swords and wizards, but just the usual drama of day to day living in the rolling hills of The Shire. I would so much have preferred this over reading the exploits of heroes in Silmarillion. Having said that, the thing that makes me interested in such a story is because I've read of the hobbits adventures in Middle-earth, so one naturally follows on from the other.

'Gentle' fantasy, with not much happening would (understandably) be a hard sell, but done on the back of a more adventurous novel, and the interest gained from it, it could work.

Shireoaks? No, thank you.

 

[Montero]

I would like to have read a 'Tales from the Shire' or something similar, where we got to see the further adventures of Sam, Rosie and their children, or perhaps further back about the Grand Took. Not adventures with swords and wizards, but just the usual drama of day to day living in the rolling hills of The Shire. I would so much have preferred this over reading the exploits of heroes in Silmarillion. Having said that, the thing that makes me interested in such a story is because I've read of the hobbits adventures in Middle-earth, so one naturally follows on from the other.

'Gentle' fantasy, with not much happening would (understandably) be a hard sell, but done on the back of a more adventurous novel, and the interest gained from it, it could work.

I love books like this, and I find that one of the big advantages of self-publishing and hybrid publishing is the room for the author to explore such things, a room they were unlike to be given by a traditional publisher. Quite a few authors are now writing "further adventures of" novellas. Barbara Hambly has put out a number on Smashwords, picking up what happened next in the lives of various of her fantasy series of thirty years back - not all peaceful by any means, but all worth reading. Then there is Andrea K Host, who wrote a sf trilogy first person, from the view of an 18 y.o. Australian girl and it all ended at a traditional publishing sort of ending - and she then followed up with a glorious happy froth of a book she called "Gratuitous Epilogue" and then followed that with a third person book about the girl's mother and what happened to her - and that was a fun adventure. I think one of the changes recently is that there are far more series where the books are not identical in form - Bujold did it with Vorkosigan years ago, as while the books in the series follow characters chronologically, they vary between romance, adventure, space adventure, more military space adventure, murder mystery and comedy.

I have seen some interesting comments in this thread in my brief visits on SFF for the last day or so. I actually came back on today to start posting the essay about how the original premise of this thread can be made to work in fantasy, and then started replying to @paranoid marvin comments. I will be back for a more detailed read and reply over the next several days. I'm really enjoying how people are joining in and discussing this.

 

[Montero]

And now, the start of my "essay" written a couple of days back - working through each point I wrote and posting a couple at a time - didn't want to make one enormous unwieldy post.

The question I am discussing, in response to what @Swank queried, is – how can you make improving the world in a fantasy, primarily using non-magical methods, work for ordinary people in the face of military, political or magical power held by those in charge – or at least those who consider themselves the top of the heap. I am primarily using Victoria Goddard's writing as an example, and also bringing in some examples of real-life historical events for comparison and support.


POINT 1 Stability often benefits high as well as low


Taking a couple of examples from the 17th century, which is history I've read the most about (in a re-enactor and amateur way) more than surrounding centuries.


In the earlier part of the 17th century, King Charles 1 went on a visit to parts of Europe, including crossing an area which had been devastated by the 100 years war. This wasn't devastated in the sense of burnt down houses and missing people, it was trampled flat and they rode across mud – no trees, fields, houses, animals, nothing. I seem to remember it was for several days and they did see a few bands of ragged skeletal people wandering around but that was it. This was written about at the time and quite well known of – in a horrified way. So the destruction of a long war was understood and feared.


At the outbreak of the English Civil war, Parliament and the King sent out “commissions” to every country, carried by their noble representatives, authorising the aristocracy and gentry of each county to raise regiments. Across each county households chose which to follow. Except for a northern county, I think it was Cheshire, where all the notable landowners had a meeting and basically said “we could do this, but we'd be fighting each other, and trampling our own fields. Why don't we tell them both to go away?” which they did and that worked for a year or two though the war turned up in the end.


So in a pre-industrial setting, people knew they had a lot to lose from war, and a lot to gain from stability. You can improve your fortunes by going to war and seizing lots of loot, or you can work on making your farms successful and invite silk weavers to come and live in your towns and make your wealth and comfort the slower way. Obviously there were wars, but there were also periods of peace. In a fictional fantasy scenario where you are gradually improving the lot of the low – which could lead to a healthier workforce and fewer desperate beggars or bandits – it might be introduced as a pilot trial in one area where everyone around can see the benefits and then say “ok, not such an awful idea after all”.


The pilot scheme methodology is one of the many used in Victoria Goddard's books and even the doubters and those actively against were grudgingly swayed by seeing the benefits, or seeing that the downside that they'd doom-mongered had not come about.



POINT 2 The person in charge can be a decent human being and so can other people in positions of influence


Doesn't always happen by any means, but there are of examples of employers wanting to provide good conditions for their workers because it was the decent thing to do, rather than being totally ruthless. Some large landowners took pride in having well kept houses for tenants on their estates (though in some cases they crammed in an awful lot of workers in that outwardly nice looking accommodation).


In the 18th century, I learned from a documentary on sweet making, there was an early Fair Trade movement as part of the larger movement of the emancipation of slaves – sweet shops would advertise in the window that no slave labour had been involved in the production of the sugar. So such movements are not unique to the 21st century – they can plausibly have their place in a fantasy that is based on that kind of historic period.


Having a decent human being in charge, is key in Victoria Goddard's book – the Emperor (unlike several of his predecessors) cares about people and hates corruption and he supports and aids Cliopher in his work. In Terry Pratchett there is a similar approach, as in an indirect way I think Vetinari supports Sam Vimes – he certainly likes to wind him up and point him at targets and those targets are ones that a decent man would choose for destruction.