Writing non-emotion

[ckatt]

Hey, hope everyone had a great holiday and that 23 has so far been good. I've been busy writing the last few months and haven't been around much. Anyway,
I'm currently working on a portion of a story where my character is trapped in a virtual environment. One of the features of this "place" is that the character does not experience any emotion there because emotion is tied to hormones and since they have no biological body at this time they don't "feel" anything. The problem is that for the story to progress, they need to escape but if they feel no emotion why should they want to? Is desire not an emotion? have I written myself into a corner?

According to Wikipedia: "While desires are often classified as emotions by laypersons, psychologists often describe desires as ur-emotions, or feelings that do not quite fit the category of basic emotions."

I know I haven't given enough context for anyone to solve my story problem, but I'm interested in what you think about the connection of emotion and biology.

 

[Montero]

I'm finding this hard to picture - have they lost all connection to their body? I am picturing the kind of virtual environment where you are in some way have a connection from environment to body, whether a port in your head or a wrap around suit. In that case while you are experiencing the virtual environment, what you experience will trigger emotions in your body.

In terms of emotion and biology, I have seen documentaries where there are MRI scans of the brain while you carry out tasks/look at pictures. The regions of the brain where emotions are felt are broadly recognised, so it can be seen how strongly your emotions light up an area and how wide the area is. Maybe this could be artificially suppressed in some way giving the emotionless state.
I think that memory would play a part - that the person would remember emotions, know that they wouldn't like what was happening to them now, and while they are not strongly motivated, could well decide that it would be a good idea to do something about getting out of the situation, and rely on their memory of their fully functioning self to be their guide of their behaviour, as they are aware they are currently not fully functional.

 

[ckatt]

@Montero
At present, they have no body. Their consciousness is more like a backup. Think Altered Carbon or Terminal Experiment

the person would remember emotions, know that they wouldn't like what was happening to them now, and while they are not strongly motivated, could well decide that it would be a good idea to do something about getting out of the situation, and rely on their memory of their fully functioning self to be their guide of their behaviour

You've pretty much described my current draft. My character often thinks that they should have a reaction to certain things but they just don't feel it. So it feels inconsistent to me to have the character act on one thing, rather than do what they are told, but not on others.

Like "It used to piss me off that my brother always bosses me around, but now it doesn't. Should I get mad at him anyway?" Where would that motivation stem from if not emotion?

 

[Biskit]

In the context, I would start to wonder what motivates the character to do anything if they have no emotions. I've been sitting here asking myself why I do anything, and every thought I follow comes down to "I do things because they make me feel happy/sad/angry/afraid". I'm sure there are other options, but those will do for the moment.

Having got myself in a tangle trying to make sense of this (so not necessarily angry, but a bit peeved) I tried to ask myself a simple question - why did I choose to reply to this thread?
1: my first reaction was "ooh, that's interesting", which made me happy.
2: trying to offer a coherent thought got me peeved because I was struggling.
3: now that I'm peeved I am really determined to try to put together a useful/coherent response.
4: it now feels like I am getting somewhere, which is shifting the peeved towards happy.
5: I have a conclusion, which is a bit vague, perhaps not fully thought through, but good enough for the moment - if I didn't have an emotional response to this thread, however mild, then I wouldn't have been motivated to respond.
6: definitely pleased with that.
7: hmm, but if desire is not an emotion, what is it? Now I'm peeved again. I tried reading the wikipedia article and decided that this was not going to make me happy.
8: I'm going back to that incompletely thought through conclusion, because it makes me happy. Ish.

So, professional psychologists aside, it feels like there ought to at least be some sort of residual emotion/desire still running even if the virtual environment is toning it right down. I suppose it depends on how precisely the virtual environment is emulating the neural network of the character and how much emotion might still be "running" as part of established patterns of behaviour.

Potentially, with a shortage of emotion, the virtual environment could be very, very boring (unless that's also an emotion???), and I do not do well with boredom, which might be enough to motivate me to find the way out...

 

[ckatt]

@Biskit It's good to see that others share my hang-ups with this. I've basically been running the same circles in my head since September.
One of the "big" ideas I'm exploring with the book is whether an AI can be a person (this is oversimplified but works here) And I have two characters. One is a virtual consciousness put into a biological body and the other is a human consciousness that has lost their body.

 

[OuttaInc]

If you redefine “desires” as “goals” does that help?

I can easily imagine a disembodied consciousness devoid of emotions having one or two goals. After all, every AI we program is usually trained on at least one goal such as “learn this pattern” or “maximize points in this game with these arbitrary rules.”

What goal might your character have that, when taken to the extreme, requires them to escape?

 

[sknox]

I don't see a problem at all. Dreams are the closest thing to VR, and I have plenty of emotions inside a dream. Indeed, sometimes I feel emotions to which, upon waking, I cannot give a name. They feel strong, but they don't map directly to anything my conscious mind can name. But as a reader I would have no problem imagining the characters would having emotions despite not having bodies.

Now, if the author explicitly said, these characters have no emotions, then I've got a problem. The author will have a challenge presenting characters that don't come across like Vulcans.

 

[ckatt]

Now, if the author explicitly said, these characters have no emotions, then I've got a problem. The author will have a challenge presenting characters that don't come across like Vulcans.

This is the exact problem I have.

 

[ckatt]

@OuttaInc
My character has a very clear goal. To escape the virtual environment to protect the one they love. The problem is that if they have no emotions in the environment, why do they care anymore?

 

[sknox]

The real question is, why did you make this choice, to remove emotion from your story? As a secondary question, what was the aim of the designers of this environment? Was the lack of emotion intended or unintended? Either way, why do they continue to admit people in here?

I can see a different sort of story where the one trapped is sort of the prize, and the story is about rescuing them, but I suspect that's not your story.

You can explore the question of what constitutes an emotion. Is curiosity an emotion? Is hunger an emotion in addition to the physiological aspect (which I presume would also not exist)? If the character is, for example, a paranoid, is fear then banished and the character is "cured"?

IOW, where is the boundary between character trait and emotion?

 

[OuttaInc]

@OuttaInc
My character has a very clear goal. To escape the virtual environment to protect the one they love. The problem is that if they have no emotions in the environment, why do they care anymore?

I guess I don't see what caring has to do with goal-directed behavior. In fact, rather than seeing a problem, I see an opportunity.

I can imagine all sorts of chaos that might come about in a VR environment when a consciousness with a goal is now stripped of any emotions that might have attenuated or tempered their actions in pursuit of that goal in real life. A caring human now becomes a HAL-like entity that will do anything to fulfill that goal. I would acknowledge the utter lack of emotion your character now exhibits and turn that dial up to eleven.

 

[Wayne Mack]

Perhaps there is a purely logical reason for the character to escape.

 

[msstice]

Is desire not an emotion? have I written myself into a corner?

I like the depth of this thinking. I believe you are on the right track, logically. Emotions and desires are very natural aspects of our existence as beings who have evolved. Desires, no matter how complicated, stem from our basic programming to survive and multiply. Emotions are feedback that tell us if our desires are being fulfilled, and guide our actions.

Now, when you say your character is trapped in a virtual environment, I'm assuming it's not them strapped to a chair looking into VR goggles, because then they are just people. What must be happening is they are simulations of people, having lost their actual physical bodies.

This will be an absolute genius story if you can pull it off. One way is you could replace the human desires with some machine directives, and emotions with some feedback mechanism that you can show using metaphor, perhaps, to the reader.

It might be worthwhile reading the book "Altered carbon". It has a different theme, but could give you some ideas.

 

[ckatt]

@OuttaInc I see your point and I think it's an interesting way to look at it
but I still think caring matters. when I build a character I consider their goal as well as the motivation behind it which is what i mean by caring.
ie a character wants to steal some fruit from a vendor. food is their goal. But why they take it is maybe more important. Is the character starving? hunger is their motivation. Maybe they want to prove to someone that they can do it. then approval is their motivation. But either way, the goal is the same. But if a character doesn't care about their goal, has no motivation, it's hard for the reader to care if they get it or not because the character doesn't

In this case, the goal is a change in location. The motivation is that the current location is bad, so anywhere else is better, or there is another location that has something the current one does not. But if the character is indifferent, then there no reason to want get to a new place. You dig?

where is the boundary between character trait and emotion?

This is a good question too. Was hoping you all might have an opinion.

I know I haven't given enough context for anyone to solve my story problem, but I'm interested in what you think about the connection of emotion and biology.

 

[ckatt]

@msstice
You are correct. At this point in the book they have no physical body. I've read Altered Carbon (see my second comment in this thread) It's not exactly like my situation but close enough.

This will be an absolute genius story if you can pull it off.

thanks for the encouragement. fingers crossed that I can

 

[OuttaInc]

@OuttaIncBut if a character doesn't care about their goal, has no motivation, it's hard for the reader to care if they get it or not because the character doesn't

I think you raise some really interesting questions. One avenue of research might be to read up on people with alexithymia (inability to experience emotions) and see what motivates them to go about their daily lives if not emotions. Might be some fertile ground there for figuring out what your character does and why.

 

[msstice]

Dreams are the closest thing to VR, and I have plenty of emotions inside a dream

This situation is not VR. This person's consciousness is being simulated.

 

[Yozh]

Does the character know that they are in some kind of disembodied simulation or not? or Do they just think they are in some physical location feels “off?”

If the latter, maybe just a sense of wrongness makes them realize intellectually, rather than emotionally, that they should try to leave.

 

[ckatt]

read up on people with alexithymia

Hey, that's a great idea. thanks for the tip.

Why did you make this choice, to remove emotion from your story?

As I see it, emotion is deeply connected to hormones in our bodies and brains. But without them, would we still have emotional responses?

@Yozh the character is aware that they are in a simulation. But do you think, that is, when you say "a sense of wrongness" do you think that sense is not an emotion?

Ultimately I'm not looking for a solution to a story problem. More so, I want to know what people's off-the-cuff reaction to emotion and biology is. Do we see them as intrinsically linked or is the idea of an unbodied consciousness having emotions easily acceptable and scientifically sound?

 

[OuttaInc]

I want to know what people's off-the-cuff reaction to emotion and biology is. Do we see them as intrinsically linked or is the idea of an unbodied consciousness having emotions easily acceptable and scientifically sound?

I’m cool with a disembodied consciousness having something akin to emotions.

Yes, the body experiences the hormones, but the command to release those hormones initially comes from the brain. So even though that flood of adrenaline or oxytocin or whatever never comes, I can imagine a consciousness having *some* awareness that something has been triggered, even if the emotion itself never materializes.