Sauron vs Lord Foul

[BAYLOR]

One notable difference Lord Foul was to destroy the land completely to free himself . Sauron wants to cover the land in Darkness and rule.

 

[Bick]

I think it probably doesn't help to dwell too much on the motivations of 'dark lords'. In the case of Sauron, I know he was one of Morgoth's lieutenants, but what does he really want and why? What's his ultimate goal? To have power, yes, but to do what with it? So he can sit on a big throne on his own in the dark for thousands of years, while ostensibly being 'in charge'? It doesn't really stack up the more you think about it... so it's maybe best not to think about it too much! While reading LoTR I would occasionally wonder what the Nazgul did in their various towers and fortresses as the ages pass. Did they play chess with each other? Compose poetry? Did they look longingly out the window at the world around them, with wistful longing? At least orcs get to run around, breathe some fresh air, hunt, mate and have lives that had meaning for them. The big bosses of epic fantasy apparently live solitary existences in dark towers of stone, just sitting there, brooding for eons... seems kinda rubbish. If I was Sauron and I managed to 'endure' after I lost my ring in the second age, I'd go and live in Bree looking like a regular bloke (I can choose how I look), drink mead, enjoy the odd pie and mash, and enjoy my immortal existence. You're just cutting your nose to spite your face sitting in that tower, Sauron. I guess I'd make a poor dark lord.

 

[BAYLOR]

I think it probably doesn't help to dwell too much on the motivations of 'dark lords'. In the case of Sauron, I know he was one of Morgoth's lieutenants, but what does he really want and why? What's his ultimate goal? To have power, yes, but to do what with it? So he can sit on a big throne on his own in the dark for thousands of years, while ostensibly being 'in charge'? It doesn't really stack up the more you think about it... so it's maybe best not to think about it too much! While reading LoTR I would occasionally wonder what the Nazgul did in their various towers and fortresses as the ages pass. Did they play chess with each other? Compose poetry? Did they look longingly out the window at the world around them, with wistful longing? At least orcs get to run around, breathe some fresh air, hunt, mate and have lives that had meaning for them. The big bosses of epic fantasy apparently live solitary existences in dark towers of stone, just sitting there, brooding for eons... seems kinda rubbish. If I was Sauron and I managed to 'endure' after I lost my ring in the second age, I'd go and live in Bree looking like a regular bloke (I can choose how I look), drink mead, enjoy the odd pie and mash, and enjoy my immortal existence. You're just cutting your nose to spite your face sitting in that tower, Sauron. I guess I'd make a poor dark lord.

The sense I get is that Sauron wanted power to rule all , Why else create the One Ring and the other rings ? He didn't;t want to destroy Middle earth he wanted to dominate it . Lord Foul on the other hand, his motivation Avery clear . He wants to be back out int he cosmos , The Land is Prison to him and wants to destroy it so he can be free.

 

[melenkurion abatha]

One thing that has always upset me, is how localised it all is in both cases.
(Upset is actually to strong a word, but "concerned me" might be too weak)

What I'm getting at is that in both cases we are lead to believe that these are "World Powers". That all of creation is involved.
But actually Sauron is fighting for Gondor and Eriador, and even Morgoth really seemed only to be concerned with Beleriand. But we are shown that there are other places, Harad and beyond and east of Mordor, and the rest of the now globular Middle Earth that don't come into Sauron's or Morgoth's designs.
Similarly Foul is interested in the Land, but at least the country of the giants and whatever the place where Nom came from was called seem largely untouched by his desires, and we get the impression that there are far more places, continents, etc which are not even mentioned. (The land of the Elohim (?) or whatever they're called, cannot be considered to have a real physical position, but clearly Foul is interested in them.)

I suppose that once Sauron has Gondor, and Eriador, the rest of the world will fall over like dominoes, and the same for Foul and the Land.

I know I'm being picky.
What story has ever been truly global or universal. Whether SF or Fantasy or not, we are always concerned with distances which are fairly easily crossed using the methods or technologies (walking or FTL/Warp) available. (Similarly James Bond can defeat an enemy in one location, once he's found it.) Otherwise the stories would just contain enormous dull gaps for travelling.
Similarly creation happens in hours (for the song of the Ainur) or perhaps days elsewhere, rather than 14 billion years, which would take a very big book.

So another point about Foul/Sauron.
Both involve very long walks/rides/sailings which are actually quite short in real terms, but both are quite closely observed. (with the travels of the Fellowhip of the Ring the most precisely chronicled.)

Oh and someone mentioned than Sauron was a Maia, but, of course, so were Gandalf, Saruman etc.

Were there other creatures on a similar plane to Foul?
Other than, I suppose Covenant. But please don't tell me. I stalled on the Last Chronicles, somewhere in Against All Things Ending . But I may try to finish them one day. (Any advice as to whether it's worth it?)

Wow, I didn't realize more discussions had continued here. I never got any emails about it.

About Sauron being a Maiar - I'm not a Tolkien connoisseur by any stretch, but yes, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and even the balrogs were all Maiar. The Maiar could manifest in various forms, had a wide variety of personality types, levels of compassion/empathy and even raw power. It's my understanding that Sauron was quite possibly the most powerful of all the Maiar. I believe Gandalf was known to be apprehensive about his duty to fight against Sauron. He was well aware of how powerful Sauron was.


Concerning Lord Foul and his fixation on The Land:

WARNING - POSSIBLE MINOR SPOILERS AHEAD IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE LAST CHRONICLES OF THOMAS COVENANT ********************************



In The Last Chronicles, Thomas Covenant would occasionally reminisce about his tenure as the Time Warden after Linden Avery reincarnated him. He remembered traveling through time and personally witnessing events that occurred in the world's past. (Notice I didn't say The Land's past) That world and its civilizations have existed for far, far longer than ours here on this Earth.

I also get the impression that world is much physically larger than our Earth. Stephen Donaldson never really explains how large that world actually is. Or even if it's flat or round. But unlike our world, it is a very magical place so our understanding of the laws of physics don't necessarily apply there.

Lord Foul was trapped in the world almost since the beginning of its creation. Covenant witnessed times throughout its long history where Lord Foul had previously unleashed his machinations in other places far removed from The Land. His outbursts were quite terrible, but to my recollection he never actually came close to destroying The Arch of Time and freeing himself. Then he eventually came across The Land. An isolated place about 1/3 the size of the United States where pure raw Earthpower was bleeding into the surrounding land from the guts of Melenkurion Skyweir. Once he discovered The Land, he decided to park his rear end there and never left after that. The attraction to the raw Earthpower seemed to be too much for him to ignore. This also gave him the opportunity to meet and dominate the Ravers and force them to serve him. Which they didn't seem to particularly mind too much.

The raw Earthpower, the banes buried beneath Kiril Threndor, the Viles, the ur-Viles, the Ravers, the Cavewights - to Foul there was no better spot in the entire world once he became aware of The Land.

I don't remember the exact reasons why Foul never visited the land of the Elohim and wreaked havoc there. I'm guessing they were able to evade him or deflect his notice somehow. I do remember Linden Avery asking why the Elohim never fought Foul themselves and they explained since he was not "of" the world their power had no effect on him.

Were there other creatures on a similar plane to Foul? Well, Foul wasn't exactly a "creature". He is basically the manifestation of the metaphysical forces of hate and destruction. His inverse is the Creator, a being of love, order and creation. They are effectively gods in their particular universe. Were there any more of these beings? Yes, another is introduced in The Last Chronicles and if you have read all the way to Against All Things Ending then you have already heard this being mentioned several times by now. I won't spoil it any further.

Is it worth finishing The Last Chronicles? In my opinion - it's not nearly as good as the first two trilogies but it's worth a read at least once to discover the ultimate fate of The Land and its world.

 

[melenkurion abatha]

I know I'm being picky.
What story has ever been truly global or universal. Whether SF or Fantasy or not, we are always concerned with distances which are fairly easily crossed using the methods or technologies (walking or FTL/Warp) available. (Similarly James Bond can defeat an enemy in one location, once he's found it.) Otherwise the stories would just contain enormous dull gaps for travelling.
Similarly creation happens in hours (for the song of the Ainur) or perhaps days elsewhere, rather than 14 billion years, which would take a very big book.

So another point about Foul/Sauron.
Both involve very long walks/rides/sailings which are actually quite short in real terms, but both are quite closely observed. (with the travels of the Fellowhip of the Ring the most precisely chronicled.)

Honestly, I can't think of any SFF stories that are truly global or universal. I think we would probably all get bored with reading a series of books that tried to encompass all the various countries and continents of an entire world in great detail.

I've often wondered about the peoples in a story on the other side of the world that had no idea that a global/universal cataclysmic event nearly occurred that could have ended their existence. Ignorance truly is bliss I guess.

 

[farntfar]

Yes. As I said, I'm being picky. But in these stories, we are dealing with Maiar or externals like Covenant, who are theoretically external and bigger than the world.

I know Blowfeld or Drax or whoever want to take over the whole world, but they are still only men, and can be dealt with by men.

The rules state in Middle Earth that the good side cannot attack the bad side with anyone of a higher order than the baddies. So no intervention by Manwe to deal with Sauron. Even Morgoth was only dealt with by the Valar in 2 extreme cases.

But another thing that seems to be central, the stongest one is always evil.
Morgoth was the strongest, most powerful Vala. And you say Sauron was the most powerful Maia.

I'm just grateful that I'm feak and weeble and so, can be mostly good.

 

[melenkurion abatha]

But another thing that seems to be central, the stongest one is always evil.
Morgoth was the strongest, most powerful Vala. And you say Sauron was the most powerful Maia.

I'm just grateful that I'm feak and weeble and so, can be mostly good.

From an entertainment perspective, I don't think any of these stories would be very interesting if the forces of good wielded the same level of might as the forces of evil. People like to root for an underdog.

A small army of lesser races facing down an immeasurable horde of orcs at the gates of Mordor just to give two hobbits even the smallest chance of destroying the ring is enough to keep a reader on edge. Two similar sized armies fighting to attrition or a possible stalemate wouldn't exactly keep me turning the next page in anticipation.

Yeah, external forces like gods, the Maiar and Valar, or Thomas Covenant is a common trope in fantasy. The forces of good need a miracle of some kind to even the odds or even give them a small chance of winning. I'm rummaging through my mind to see if I can think of a fantasy story that doesn't involve some sort of external forces. -- Perhaps the Green Bone saga by Fonda Lee? It's not a pure fantasy story like LOTR or Thomas Covenant but I don't recall any external forces at play there.

You make a good point. Perhaps the lack of power or a lack of desire for power is a crucial piece of a person's psychological makeup that causes them to be generally "good". We all know the saying: power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[farntfar]

From an entertainment perspective, I don't think any of these stories would be very interesting if the forces of good wielded the same level of might as the forces of evil. People like to root for an underdog.

You are, of course, right about the stories being more interesting when the good side has less strength than the baddies. And the moments when the good side finds an apparently easy way to suddenly have more power than the bad side always goes wrong. As noted by Elena at you name's inspiration, Melenkurion Skyweir, when she invoked the spirit of Kevin.