Article on readers' "pet peeves"

Yozh

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More on what reader's do not want to see in your book. Lots of what we see discussed here on chrons:

Reader Pet Peeves-- Washington Post

One thing to note, though is "excessive length is a frequent complaint." I have to say I agree with that. When I peruse the library shelves I give a pass to the super-thick book unless it's an author I already know I love.
 
Can't read it; behind paywall.

The length thing is funny to me. If the book seems too long, then don't pick it up. Easy. Where's the complaint? There are tons upon tons of shorter works from which to choose. Otherwise, it's like going to McDonalds to complain about the burgers.
 
Can't read it; behind paywall.

The length thing is funny to me. If the book seems too long, then don't pick it up. Easy. Where's the complaint? There are tons upon tons of shorter works from which to choose. Otherwise, it's like going to McDonalds to complain about the burgers.
A fuller version of the quote about length is more meaningful.
Excessive length was a frequent complaint. Jean Murray says, “First books by best-selling authors are reasonable in length; then they start believing that every word they write is golden and shouldn’t be cut.”​
 
Can't read it; behind paywall.
I don't think you missed much. <rant mode> This is an example of a growing trend of someone posting a question on reddit or some similar forum (this particular one was a book club mailing list) and then just copying and pasting the responses, then calling it an article. No original thought or analysis; just a list of statements. Any of the comments could have been the starting point for a well-researched article, but instead it is just a list of perceived grievances. </rant mode>
 
Think this article is maybe a little tongue in cheek too. No dreams, no italics, no being sick, no hard days at work followed by a shower, no prologues, fist fights, descriptions (?), conversations (?), chapters (??), paragraphs (???), sentences (????). And whoever complained about gratuitous sex and violence, wanna find them and scream YAAAAAWN at them. Bet they're fun at parties.

But imagine being a kid starting out writing and reading this, you'd just throw in the towel straight away.

I'm off to write my ten thousand word prologue in italics about a damsel in distress who turns to gardening, and guess what, when she talks there's not a punctuation mark in sight...!
 
Everyone thinks they are damn smart while writing. Checking in with a list like this is a good filter for how actually interesting you are.

(I particularly like the shower after a hard day complaint. I don't want to read about that kind of sudsy reflection either.)
 
Everyone thinks they are damn smart while writing. Checking in with a list like this is a good filter for how actually interesting you are.

(I particularly like the shower after a hard day complaint. I don't want to read about that kind of sudsy reflection either.)

But these lists aren't good filters. They're awful filters. Atrocious filters.

Let's pick one of them. Italics.

The best selling book in the USA last year was Colleen Hoover's It Ends With Us. On the first page? Italics.

So, in terms of whether italics are interesting, in the red corner we have one list that some journo put together, and in the blue corner we have a book that sold 2.7m copies.

The choice as to the better filter is beyond obvious.

I'm pretty sure there's a shower after a hard day in House of Earth and Blood by Maas. It won the Goodreads Reader's Choice for fantasy. It was also 250k odd words long.

These lists bear zero connection to what a writer can and cannot include while still being interesting. There never really is any list that can do it, but this collection of pet peeves has no place.
 
My first book is a little under 50,000 words. One person I know read it in an afternoon. I didn't do so intentionally, that was just the length it ended up with when the book was finished to my satisfaction.
That being said, I don't understand the logic behind complaining about long books. You can always just take a break and finish it later!
 
There's a difference between "it's not good" and "I don't like it."

I regularly use italics, but it's for foreign words, not for emphasis. I was taught in grad school not to use typography to make my point. I thought it sensible advice and have tried to follow it ever since.
 
But these lists aren't good filters. They're awful filters. Atrocious filters.

Let's pick one of them. Italics.

The best selling book in the USA last year was Colleen Hoover's It Ends With Us. On the first page? Italics.

So, in terms of whether italics are interesting, in the red corner we have one list that some journo put together, and in the blue corner we have a book that sold 2.7m copies.

The choice as to the better filter is beyond obvious.

I'm pretty sure there's a shower after a hard day in House of Earth and Blood by Maas. It won the Goodreads Reader's Choice for fantasy. It was also 250k odd words long.

These lists bear zero connection to what a writer can and cannot include while still being interesting. There never really is any list that can do it, but this collection of pet peeves has no place.
Are you suggesting that It Ends With Us sold 2.7m copies because it used italics?

A good book can have annoying details. They are annoying even if the book sells well and is loved. If you are writing a book sure to impress no matter what you do, don't worry about it. But maybe folks who aren't so certain of their success might consider unloading stuff that's meh.


My main feeling is that being given access to other people's tastes is a good way to examine your creative assumptions. Not treat them as rules.
 
Peat and I were chatting the other day about the advice that we/people give regarding writing and he said something that sticks with me.

When we come here to ask questions as new writers, there’s a tendency to put perhaps a little too much store in the advice of others. I’d never written a word before I joined Chrons, and I know that up till relatively recently I was still following some real turkeys when it comes to advice.

There’s no one-size-fits-all approach to writing, and that is before you even get into the demands of things such as genre and culture.

What is important imo is style. You have to focus on your style. It’s your usp.

I am heavy on italics, on parenthetical thoughts and deep POV. It might not be everyone’s cuppa but I write for me (and people like me), not ‘them’.

Also these listicles are actually one of my pet peeves ;) they promise a completely untested set of results that come down to nothing in terms of demographics. Who takes these polls; why are their opinions so poignant?

<hint: they’re not>

Go with what you think is acceptable; worry about total randomers’ opinions when someone can tell you why their opinions are more valid than, say all the publishers who do use italics, or blah, or blah and blah.

This of course is my opinion as a randomer, but I am also a malcontent so take this as you wish…
 
Are you suggesting that It Ends With Us sold 2.7m copies because it used italics?

A good book can have annoying details. They are annoying even if the book sells well and is loved. If you are writing a book sure to impress no matter what you do, don't worry about it. But maybe folks who aren't so certain of their success might consider unloading stuff that's meh.


My main feeling is that being given access to other people's tastes is a good way to examine your creative assumptions. Not treat them as rules.
I don't have a WaPo subscription so all I can tell about the article is from the comments but I didn't interpret
The best selling book in the USA last year was Colleen Hoover's It Ends With Us. On the first page? Italics.
as meaning it sold well because of italics. I took this to be part of the larger commentary that most advice on writing is crap. This is because reading a book is a rather personal experience. You bring your baggage, the author brings theirs, and then you sit together and make friends.

If I gave you dating advice how well would that go? It doesn't usually go well even between close friends. "Oh, you won't like a smoker, they smell awful." sounds like good advice to me, but that's just me. I think books are similar.

There is a set of strictly technical pointers that could be generally useful, but there is always a book that sold well that doesn't follow that advice.

If you took all the qualities of best selling books and did some statistical analysis I suppose you'd come up with some list, but it wouldn't be very useful. Even good technical advice like, be grammar properly, and spell rite, probably don't apply to Patterson, Grisham and Dan Brown.

You are the artist and this is the only part of the world where it's your way or the highway. I would be loathe to give up that agency.
 
Let's start at the top of this.

What should a writer be doing?

A writer should be being true to themselves, because there's no point otherwise; they should have an eye on their time and mental health, because writing tends to diminish those; and they should keep an eye on how their work is received, because there's no point trying to communicate if you don't check whether it works.

Lists like these have don't really have a place in the first.

Lists like these are actively, if minorly, harmful to time, and potentially quite harmful to mental health. The average writer spends enough time worrying over everything they do without encouraging worrying about the tiniest of details. Look at how many threads there are here asking permission to do this or that. I have known people who've made themselves genuinely quite unhappy stressing over writing advice.

Which leaves us with communication and this point

Are you suggesting that It Ends With Us sold 2.7m copies because it used italics?

A good book can have annoying details. They are annoying even if the book sells well and is loved. If you are writing a book sure to impress no matter what you do, don't worry about it. But maybe folks who aren't so certain of their success might consider unloading stuff that's meh.


My main feeling is that being given access to other people's tastes is a good way to examine your creative assumptions. Not treat them as rules.

No.

I am stating that as a guide as to whether italics are an actively bad and annoying thing in terms of writing fiction that people will like, the book that sold 2.7m is far, far better than the one survey done on a newspaper's book club mailing list that got "hundreds and hundreds" of respondents, and from which data we got to see a brief, imprecise summary and a few quotes.

The former is a copperplate guarantee that it won't annoy people enough to prevent a book from becoming a massive seller.

The latter is functionally useless. Did 20 out of 200 people complain about italics, or 2 out of 800? Is it just something that bugs them which they took a chance to vent about one day but doesn't stop them liking and recommending books at all, or something that does really turn five star reads into one stars? What genres do these people even read? This list isn't even being given access to other people's tastes in the first place. It's like finding a torn off piece off their groceries receipt and trying to work out what they like to eat.

And even if it was doing that, so what? Being the most successful fiction book in the USA last year meant selling to less than 1% of the population. You can afford to take choices that alienate huge swathes of people and still get yours. Which is just as well as if you ask enough people for their pet peeves, you will find that absolutely everything is on the list soon enough. The exercise is pointless to begin with.

Smart writers don't worry about how they'll annoy people, they focus on how they'll make their audience happy.



Since I have devoted far too much time to this, I will indulge myself in a coda -

Good writing involves constant self-challenge. We are often turning to people and asking questions every day. My rubbishing of the idea this list has value for writers is not a rubbishing of the idea we need to examine our creative assumptions.

What good writers recognise is that given the endless list of ways to examine our creative assumptions, and the extent to which these methods are not one size fits all, they must pick smartly. Developing writers need to learn to exercise their judgment about what helps and what doesn't to become good writers, but they also need protection from the stuff that doesn't help.

As such, it's barely possible to criticise the idea writers should pay attention to lists like this enough.
 
Let's start at the top of this.

What should a writer be doing?

A writer should be being true to themselves, because there's no point otherwise; they should have an eye on their time and mental health, because writing tends to diminish those; and they should keep an eye on how their work is received, because there's no point trying to communicate if you don't check whether it works.

Lists like these have don't really have a place in the first.

Lists like these are actively, if minorly, harmful to time, and potentially quite harmful to mental health. The average writer spends enough time worrying over everything they do without encouraging worrying about the tiniest of details. Look at how many threads there are here asking permission to do this or that. I have known people who've made themselves genuinely quite unhappy stressing over writing advice.

Which leaves us with communication and this point



No.

I am stating that as a guide as to whether italics are an actively bad and annoying thing in terms of writing fiction that people will like, the book that sold 2.7m is far, far better than the one survey done on a newspaper's book club mailing list that got "hundreds and hundreds" of respondents, and from which data we got to see a brief, imprecise summary and a few quotes.

The former is a copperplate guarantee that it won't annoy people enough to prevent a book from becoming a massive seller.

The latter is functionally useless. Did 20 out of 200 people complain about italics, or 2 out of 800? Is it just something that bugs them which they took a chance to vent about one day but doesn't stop them liking and recommending books at all, or something that does really turn five star reads into one stars? What genres do these people even read? This list isn't even being given access to other people's tastes in the first place. It's like finding a torn off piece off their groceries receipt and trying to work out what they like to eat.

And even if it was doing that, so what? Being the most successful fiction book in the USA last year meant selling to less than 1% of the population. You can afford to take choices that alienate huge swathes of people and still get yours. Which is just as well as if you ask enough people for their pet peeves, you will find that absolutely everything is on the list soon enough. The exercise is pointless to begin with.

Smart writers don't worry about how they'll annoy people, they focus on how they'll make their audience happy.



Since I have devoted far too much time to this, I will indulge myself in a coda -

Good writing involves constant self-challenge. We are often turning to people and asking questions every day. My rubbishing of the idea this list has value for writers is not a rubbishing of the idea we need to examine our creative assumptions.

What good writers recognise is that given the endless list of ways to examine our creative assumptions, and the extent to which these methods are not one size fits all, they must pick smartly. Developing writers need to learn to exercise their judgment about what helps and what doesn't to become good writers, but they also need protection from the stuff that doesn't help.

As such, it's barely possible to criticise the idea writers should pay attention to lists like this enough.
So here's the counterpoint:
All sorts of books get published, and only a very few of them were written by people as talented as Cormac McCarthy. So it is worthwhile to concede that crafting a publishable book is sometimes the product of merely being a competent scribbler and offering something easy to digest. Which is something that many of us aspiring writers... aspire to: At least getting something published and sold.


To that end, I don't see lists like this as advice. I see them as things to consider when writing, not rules to follow. Am I, without being aware of it, writing a cliché shower scene? Hey; maybe. Is there something more creative I could do instead for this scene? That's my call, but at least I was awarded the opportunity to think about it because of some silly list I spent 5 minutes reading.

Writing sites usually reward the sentiment that generalized advice is bad because it can be disproved anecdotally and sounds formulaic. I think this attitude ignores the fact that developing writers have certain blind spots that come up over and over. A good way to get past them is to become aware of what annoys readers and respect why those things annoy. What you choose to do with that information is your creative control. But using a lot of italics AND not knowing that some people hate them is not controlling your writing.

Information leads to thoughtfulness.
 
A good way to get past them is to become aware of what annoys readers and respect why those things annoy.
It is not clear to me that readers are a singular category. Looking at things that are lauded as "great books" different readers seem to want, like and tolerate wildly different things.

Now, if we turned this around and replaced readers with "agents" and "editors" and "publishers" we might have a better game simply because these gatekeepers of taste are, by definition, far fewer in number than the actual readers, and so their space of wants and likes is considerably smaller.
 
It is not clear to me that readers are a singular category. Looking at things that are lauded as "great books" different readers seem to want, like and tolerate wildly different things.

Now, if we turned this around and replaced readers with "agents" and "editors" and "publishers" we might have a better game simply because these gatekeepers of taste are, by definition, far fewer in number than the actual readers, and so their space of wants and likes is considerably smaller.
I think that you and I are talking about different things, because this POV thing also keeps popping up:

To many writers on Chrons, writing a publishable book involves cracking a code that is secretly maintained by a cabal of gatekeepers, and that successfully satisfying that code leads to success.

To me, writing a publishable book is producing a document that is interesting, reasonably fresh and highly competent. Bonus points for actual brilliance. If it is nice to read, the gatekeepers will notice that fact and forget for a moment that they are part of a conspiracy intent on only publishing Twilight clones. And getting there with those gatekeepers means applying an open perspective to anything that might make your writing stronger, smoother, more universal and yet more unique.


Of course, my POV is absurdly optimistic and meritorious. But I really don't see how something like The Sudden Appearance of Hope gets published if there is a code to break.
 

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