Star Wars: Ahsoka - 01:03 - Part Three: Time to Fly

[Phyrebrat]

Fans are the problem imo. There’s a huge media illiteracy in participants nowadays, who mistake their entitlement to see the story they want to see, as failings in the SW universe.


When Twitter was viable I found that there were far more fans of the ‘traditionally’ less popular sw offerings than the more vocal naysayers. It was a lovely realisation (and the fact that one can curate your followers so as not to hear from the toxic fanboys.

I see it this way — I have loads of sw to enjoy without any of the angst and the stuff since 1997 has confined to give me utter delight. As far as TLJ goes. People claimed they wanted sw to move in a different direction and when it did they got all arsey. Grumpy Luke is one of the most creative and original ideas in the last 20 years.

 

[ctg]

@ctg did you ever see the Tartovsky clone wars animation? I love that. It really reminds me of cartoons I watched as a kid. It uses absence of dialogue a lot and it works really well.

Only briefly.

 

[Dave]

Fans are the problem imo.

Did you happen to watch The Following Events Are Based on a Pack of Lies, Tuesday evenings at 9pm on BBC1? One of the main characters is an author at a book launch of her seventh and final book of a series. It's a fantasy book series (quite obviously with a GRRM likeness) in which she kills off a character that the fans liked. Some of the fans were at the book launch... I think those are the fans that you are looking for!

I only partly agree with that though. When I invest hours, days, weeks into watching some TV show or book series, that's a part of my life that I could have spent doing something else. I've watched plenty of TV shows that got cancelled and just simply finished without any end. I can sympathise with a book series that is never going to be finished, or when a franchise gets a new owner and they begins to write a character in a total different way. Yes, fans are nerds, who William Shatner famously told to "Get a Life!" but he later rowed back on that. He realised that they also paid his salary!

There’s a huge media illiteracy in participants nowadays, who mistake their entitlement to see the story they want to see, as failings in the SW universe.

There might be that too. That may be a Star Wars thing though, and probably more of a social media thing, and maybe therefore an age thing. I don't see that on these forums. I think our membership is more representative of SFF fans of all ages, and here we generally provide valid arguments when we disagree. I know you haven't always agreed with the more vocal complainers about the direction of Star Wars here, and I often don't understand their arguments (being more of a Star Trek nerd myself) but I respect their views all the same.

 

[Phyrebrat]

@Dave and anyone who read my post — I was definitely not categorising anyone here on Chrons as toxic SW fans! Chrons is my safe place

I think as a writer and a choreographer with lots of training and investment, I often marvel at comments from muggles (I.E non-writers or non-dancers) who say things to me like:

1) oh we have Xyz in school assembly in two weeks’ time, can you get the kids to perform a dance. It’s often teachers and heads of year that say this to me. I normally just laugh and ask them if they say that to the drama or art departments. (Although my response is usually a rude one saying ‘sure, I’ll just pull that out my a*** shall I?’)

2) when people find out you’re a writer and say things like ‘yeah, I might write a book’ having had no interest or training— even exposure — to the craft. More often than not, they’re also rarely readers.

In this current hyper-connected world we live in (I watch Ahsoka at 5am on Wednesday mornings) info and opinions travel and multiply much quicker and easier (and without fact check verification lately) because we’ve introduced a new economy/business where merely having a lot of followers and posting opinions is a ‘job’ (cough so called influencers). I think this has emboldened a lot of people who confuse enthusiasm with truth.

My problem is with people who slam SW as crap etc but continue to watch it and expect others to change instead of them.

Ahsoka (or whatever) might not be everyone’s cup of tea but the naysayers seem to be unaware of the canon and just moaning.

The problem is white male influence inasmuch as they’re the ones who object to a lot of the changes Star Wars has lately gone through; female representation (using terms for Rey as Mary Sue but not applying the same to Luke, Anakin, Din or Andor) who are all Mary Sues; trans characters (in the comics); gay characters (the furore online from men when Obi Wan was said to be bisexual was mind blowing); and it goes on.

When (not if ) I’m a famous author, I look forward to ‘fans’ telling me they don’t like my writing just so I can tell them to go forth and multiply themselves

(Sorry if anyone else on Chrons thought I was saying they’re toxic fanboys. I should message from my home instead of London transport )

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

Fans are the problem imo. There’s a huge media illiteracy in participants nowadays, who mistake their entitlement to see the story they want to see, as failings in the SW universe.

Toxic fandom is very much a thing. I'm probably not alone in thinking that social media gone wrong is a platform for radicalization. This is what happens when algorithms or people themselves are able to tailor the content they interact with, trapping themselves in their own little bubbles with the added ability to shun anything and anyone offering a contradicting opinion.

Of course all sides now have their radicalized elements, which make all conversations difficult. Clearly I have faced accusations of being a toxic fan who hates Disney Star Wars as a whole (rather than on the whole) when I called The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker the worst of the SW movies, or when I criticized The Book of Boba Fett as a study in character assassination, even though I have no problems with The Force Awakens (beyond its lack of ambition) and enjoyed The Mandalorian (s1 and s2) immensely, and both are very much 'Disney SW'... Interestingly I would even say that The Last Jedi is both one of the top 3 movies in the Star Wars franchise and the second worst Star Wars movie. So I don't think I can be accused of lacking nuance. And I don't see people calling Mark Hamill a toxic hater when he calls the writing of Luke in TLJ nonsense.

But that's not all. I was accused of being a mysoginistic pig when I criticized Leia (my second favorite SW character!) floating in space in The Last Jedi as bad VFX work. I was accused of being a racist when I criticized the writing of the romance between Rose Tico and Finn.

And in turn I'll plead guilty to reacting to this name-calling by radicalizing my stance too. The more people refused to accept my arguments as valid opinions, the more I was accused of being a blind hater or a member of the worst groups society has to offer, the more vehement I became in the defense of my views. Sometimes abusively (not in the sense that I've abused people, but that I went overboard in my criticism of a scene or character even though I didn't think it was that terrible). Fanning a fire is the surest way to make it grow.

Anyway, having normal conversations has become harder as a whole. But while it is very much a problem, I don't think it's the problem. Vocal minorities are a thing but they remain minorities, and Disney simply can never afford to tailor its content to minority A or B because minorities, while loud, are not profitable. So toxic fans will never be the reason why Disney refuses to offer innovative content. Unless one day a majority of SW fans become the toxic fans, but when that happens SW will simply die.

My problem is with people who slam SW as crap etc but continue to watch it and expect others to change instead of them.

Is that really what most critics of modern Star Wars think? I'll use my personal example since it's the one I'm most familiar with (^^): Yes, I find most of the live-action SW content that has been released since 1997 dreadful. It didn't start with Disney, but of course Disney has released so much content over the last decade it's become hard to navigate through all the muck. So I will concede that I am, on the whole, a Disney SW critic. But again, I don't think Disney has only released bad content. They gave us The Mandalorian, Andor, which most people seem to agree is a masterpiece (that I haven't finished out of a lack of interest, not because I found it bad), and Rogue One, one of the best SW movies since the OT. Hell, here's an unpopular opinion: I love Solo, and I don't understand why most people seem to think it is crap.

So the reason I keep watching SW even though I 'hate' (according to some) most of it now is not because I expect Disney to change. But because I keep hoping that every new project they release is the new Mandalorian. That it will live up to the highs of Rogue One, Solo (IMHO), or even A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back. I don't expect Disney or Star Wars to change, I expect it to deliver because I know it can and has. I don't go in every new project expecting to hate it but on the contrary, expecting to love it to bits. I am eternally hopeful that content makers will wow us. Which makes it all the more painful when they just rehash the same tired content again and again.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Great reply @The Crawling Chaos — I’m sadly off to a day’s unnecessary full training (!) so I won’t be able to reply with my thoughts for a while. Maybe tomorrow.

Isn’t it a shame that something so wonderful can also cause so much arguments amongst the fans etc. I’ve seen people treated the same way as you just for highlighting personal opinions and preferences. It seems to be an all or nothing game with some; very Sith

 

[ctg]

Following the first wave of Star Wars: Ahsoka The Black Series action figures and lightsaber replicas earlier this month, Hasbro teamed up with ComicBook.com to exclusively reveal more of the must-have figures in the lineup. This includes Ezra Bridger, Chopper, Professor Huyang, HK-87 Assassin Droid, Marrok, Morgan Elsbeth. There is also a new Sabine Wren electronic helmet and Vintage Collection releases. Everything you need to know can be found right here.

"When can I pre-order these awesome figures?" is usually a good place to start, and we can tell you that your first opportunity will happen tomorrow, August 30th at 10am PT / 1pm ET. At that time, pre-orders are expected to launch here at Entertainment Earth and here on Amazon. Below you'll find additional details about each release followed by a gallery of images. Direct pre-order links for each item will be added after the launch. It's a fun wave, and we're especially excited to see figures based on fan-favorite droids Huyang (David Tennant) and Chopper (Dave Filoni) as well as the mysterious new inquisitor Marrok

Star Wars: Ahsoka Black Series Figure Lineup Wave 2 Is On Sale Now

Hasbro's latest figures include Ezra Bridger, Chopper, Marrok, Professor Huyang, and more. [...]

comicbook.com

I've read and watched a few theories on Marrok Inquisitor. Some has claimed that he's Ezra, but according to the toylane, he's still wearing the same costume as what he did at back in the Rebel days. To be totally honest and as a Filoni veteran, I don't think Marrok is Ezra and I certainly don't believe that Thrawn did support Palpatine's black op, brainwash programs to make the Inquisitors. Whoever is behind the mask isn't Ezra, but I do have other suggestions, like for example the StarKiller. Although Vader failed the boy Palpatine might have caught him and transformed him through the program.

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

It would be a cool little easter egg to see Starkiller recanonized, even if they change his backstory.

I also don't think it's Ezra. But then again, I don't really know Ezra . My reasoning is just that if Ezra disappeared alongside Thrawn all those years ago, it makes little sense that Thrawn is trapped wherever he is but Ezra somehow came back to become a dark side minion.

I also would like to see Quinlan Vos cameo in some capacity. He has been referred to in live-action twice now, once in the new canon, but we have yet to see him. He was a huge (the main?) draw for the Star Wars Republic comics before Revenge of the Sith came out.

 

[ctg]

I also would like to see Quinlan Vos cameo in some capacity. He has been referred to in live-action twice now, once in the new canon, but we have yet to see him. He was a huge (the main?) draw for the Star Wars Republic comics before Revenge of the Sith came out.

Well, Cad Bane is rumoured to come back, but that's just it. For the other Force Users to appear, we need to get deeper into the storyline and keep our minds open for those possibilities.

 

[REBerg]

I like this series. I don't much care if or how well it fits into the SW Universe.
For me, scholarly analysis negates entertainment value.

 

[Dave]

scholarly analysis negates entertainment value.

I'm certainly not into a scholarly analysis, but neither do I agree that you cannot criticise a story unless you are a published author or a screenwriter yourself. I'm not either, but telling stories is what humans do very well. Telling stories is how we have always passed down ancient knowledge. It's what we do over the garden fence, down the local pub, or at the bus stop. I think most people know how to tell a good story, and also when someone is bad at storytelling; you don't need any qualifications in grammar or creative writing to see it. The audience is either with them or it isn't, and you can see when that happens. There are some rules to follow. If it is a humorous story you don't tell the punchline first. If someone is giving you some juicy gossip on someone else, they don't go off at a tangent and tell you about their garden instead.

Sorry, this is certainly OT but I'll bring it back again. As I said I'm a Star Trek nerd rather than a Star Wars nerd. Before I joined these forums, at the very beginning of time itself, I was a member of the 'Nitpickers Guild' that found all the inconsistencies and canon problems and filming errors in Star Trek: TNG and DS9. (There was a series of books, I got a mention, but there were less series to criticise back then, it was easier.) It was fun and it added to my enjoyment of watching, but I did still appreciate that they people who made those series, loved them just as much as I did, and that humans can make mistakes. I continued "nitpicking" when I first joined here but I got bored with it. There were too many errors, and it often seemed (in Discovery mainly) that those making the show either didn't know the show themselves, or that they didn't actually care. I have found that it has improved in Picard and Strange New Worlds, and The Lower Decks actually criticises those very things itself now. It is probably a part of its appeal to fans.

So, while I don't know enough that I can see those things in Star Wars series, I certainly understand why some people can get upset by it. They just need to get over it as I did, otherwise they'll never enjoy Star Wars again. (However, showing a character die at the end of an episode, then saying it was "only a flesh wound" at the beginning of the next, that is always going to be poor storytelling IMHO.)

 

[ctg]

Turning back to Star Wars: it seems clear now that Dave Filoni is using Sabine's storyline in Ahsoka to not just settle this debate about the Force with expository explanations – he's going to show it. Ahsoka is a samurai-themed story, and part of that story shows how a warrior learns the focus and zen-like mindstate to tap into a power she couldn't access before. It's a trope that has been, by now, echoed in so many different genres – and if anything, Star Wars is the one franchise besides anime where it fits best.

To be fair: Star Wars itself is responsible for a lot of this confusion. George Lucas was the one who once explained that anyone can use the Force; however, he's also the one who put out the idea of Midichlorians being the source of Force powers, and Jedi being special people with high Midichlorian counts. However, Midichlorians aren't the plot armor that prevents other people in the Star Wars Universe from having Force powers: Having high Midichlorian counts, or Force sensitivity (or whatever you want to call it) is like being naturally talented at athletics: while that natural ability (plus dedicated training) means that you may always be the top-tier player on the team, there are always secondary or even bench-warming players that got their spot through harder training to compensate for much less natural ability. The same idea is now being cemented in place in regard to the Force: while the sorts of younglings the Jedi recruited were natural talents, those less sensitive to the Force can still be trained to sense, and presumably, use it.

Star Wars Ahsoka: How Sabine's Jedi Training Is Finally Settling A Major Debate About The Force

Star Wars: Ahsoka's storyline of Sabine's Jedi Training is settling a major debate and [...]

comicbook.com

 

[RDArmstrong]

I'm not sure if it's the acting or character but Ashoka seems really disinterested or tired all the time.

 

[BT Jones]

Well, certainly the best episode of the 3 so far - the first one to warrant a 6/10 for me. I can just about forgive it for the ludicrous Ahsoka-in-a-spacesuit-on-the-wing-of-a-ship scene, which seemed to have been thrown in simply because someone thought it would have been cool. Utterly preposterous, especially the way the fighters kept charging in and doing flybys. Why not just slow to a stop and blast the living daylights out of the ship? But no, best to charge in at full speed and aim at the only thing that can deflect your laser blasts... Why don't these writers bother with logic when they fashion these stories.

Part from that, good episode. The story is finally moving somewhere. Sabine was fleshed out a fair bit more, and the Jedi training scene was decent. Ray Stevenson's character remains the high point; a performance (and writing) to illicit genuine sympathy, which is how every villain should be written.

 

[HareBrain]

Why don't these writers bother with logic when they fashion these stories.

I would genuinely be interested in an answer to this question. I can't see the upside except that they have to put in less work. Almost the worst example I've ever come across was in a Star Wars film -- the bit in Rise of Skywalker where the characters fall through some kind of quicksand into a cave underneath. The writers must have known full well that this was impossible and would look stupid. But almost as bad is making enemies behave with obvious stupidity to let the heroes get away (or look good). This kills tension, because why worry about the heroes' wellbeing when the enemies are just going to nerf themselves, or laws of physics are ignored to accommodate them?

I can see that some fans won't mind these things, but I can't see why any would actually prefer it that way. And that kind of thing just risks putting off picky people like me who might otherwise enjoy it (the absence of this kind of thing in Andor is partly why I think that series is so good).

 

[BT Jones]

I would genuinely be interested in an answer to this question. I can't see the upside except that they have to put in less work. Almost the worst example I've ever come across was in a Star Wars film -- the bit in Rise of Skywalker where the characters fall through some kind of quicksand into a cave underneath. The writers must have known full well that this was impossible and would look stupid. But almost as bad is making enemies behave with obvious stupidity to let the heroes get away (or look good). This kills tension, because why worry about the heroes' wellbeing when the enemies are just going to nerf themselves, or laws of physics are ignored to accommodate them?

I can see that some fans won't mind these things, but I can't see why any would actually prefer it that way. And that kind of thing just risks putting off picky people like me who might otherwise enjoy it (the absence of this kind of thing in Andor is partly why I think that series is so good).

Agreed wholeheartedly, @HareBrain. Yeah, that was just one of many dumb things in Rise of Skywalker, which was an appalling amalgamation of nonsense plot threads and character choices (the only leeway I give JJ Abrams is that is was handed a turd of a baton with The Last Jedi).

I can't think of the number of times I've rewritten / rethought something in my WIP because it simply doesn't work, or represents an illogical character choice. But the truth of the matter is, the vast majority of viewers don't really care, or don't notice.

 

[HareBrain]

I can't think of the number of times I've rewritten / rethought something in my WIP because it simply doesn't work, or represents an illogical character choice. But the truth of the matter is, the vast majority of viewers don't really care, or don't notice.

Yes, same, and the rewriting probably isn't necessary half the time. I sometimes realised I've broken my own lore without my writing group picking it up -- and if they don't, chances are no one else will. But I wouldn't be able to leave it in -- it's a matter of pride (which is why the apparent attitude of these screenwriters feels so alien to me).

It does make you appreciate something that is well-written and hole-free. But that should be default (IMO) for a show/film costing tens or hundreds of millions, not a bonus.

 

[Rodders]

I struggled with this episode and found it to be very much style over substance.

Those little fighters must be the most useless and under powered ships I've ever seen. Ahsoka walking on the wing and taking one down was a bit too far.

I'm struggling to come to terms with the fact that you no longer need to be force sensitive to be a Jedi.

Huang (not sure how to spell it) is growing on me. I like his snarky comebacks and he made me laugh out loud on this episode.