funny lineages

Peppa

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Among the many things George R.R. Martin borrows from other authors, there are many character borrowings. In some cases it is very straightforward. In others he merges or splits characters. For example, Melisandre is obviously derived from Pryrates, the evil sorcerer from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. But in what way does this character undergo such a gender change? After all, Melisandre is a woman and Pryrates is a man.

The possible answer could be very interesting. Probably the character of Melisandre was also influenced by the character of Pale Woman from Robin Hobb's books. So Pryrates + Pale Woman = Melisandre.

Even more interesting are the examples of character splitting. In Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, Princess Miriamele pretends to be a boy and then a girl servant called Marya. In A Song of Ice and Fire this character is split into two sisters, Sansa and Arya. The older one is very girlish and gentle, while the younger one behaves like a boy at first and then actually disguises herself as a boy. So Sansa and Arya are descended from Miriamele, and each of the two girls sort of embodies one of the two aspects of that character. Sansa is more Miriamele and Arya is more Marya.

But even more interesting is the case of Josua, Miriamele's uncle. First he lost an arm in battle, and then he was forced to flee to the nomadic barbarians. There he married the daughter of their chief. Ring any bells? The loss of his hand passed on Jaime Lannister, and the flight to the nomads and subsequent marriage to their leader went to Daenerys. So Jaime Lannister and Dany are like brother and sister. After all, they both trace their ancestry back to Prince Josua. And through Corum Jhaelen Irsei, they may be descended from the ancient god Nuadu who also lost his hand.

Even more complex and interesting is the image of a boy who likes to climb towers in a huge castle. I'm writing about Bran, of course, who seems to have picked up this dangerous habit from Simon from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. But Simon wasn't the first boy in fantasy books to engage in such dangerous play. In fact, the character can be traced back to Steerpike in Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast.

But Steerpike was a villain, so how did Simon become a good guy and even a protagonist? He was influenced by the image from Sam from Lord of the Rings. Even their names are slightly similar. At the beginning of "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn" -- just a kitchen boy, but then he becomes a knight and a king. He's a sort of a Lord of the Rings Sam who's been upgraded to Aragorn.

So Steerpike + Sam = Simon, and Bran is sort of descended from Simon.

The case of Jon Snow is also very interesting. A ******* with a magical connection to a wolf is reminiscent of Fitz in the Robin Hobb books. But even that character is not so original. The ******* who faithfully serves his ruling uncle and has no claim to the throne is reminiscent of Merlin from the Mary Stewart books. So Jon Snow is descended from Fitz, and Fitz from Merlin. Who would have thought that Jon Snow could be someone like Merlin's grandson?

Of course, such lineages can be traced back to more than just George R.R. Martin's books. For example, Moiraine Damodred from Wheel of Time and Dr Morgenes from "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn" are both descended from Gandalf. I think there are many more of these funny lineages in fantasy books, and I've only traced the ones that come to mind at the moment. Perhaps other people can trace more such lineages in sci-fi and fantasy.
 
I think this is too reductive. All of these characters are variations on archetypes. Some may have influenced others but each one was likely influenced by many other factors that had sunk into "the leafmould of the [writer's] mind", as Tolkien put it.

But even more interesting is the case of Josua, Miriamele's uncle. First he lost an arm in battle, and then he was forced to flee to the nomadic barbarians. There he married the daughter of their chief. Ring any bells? The loss of his hand passed on Jaime Lannister, and the flight to the nomads and subsequent marriage to their leader went to Daenerys.
So a character with attributes A and B must be linked to other characters who each have attribute A or B (not even both)? I'm fully on board with Martin being Influenced by Williams -- he's as good as said so -- but something like this is a real stretch.

It's tempting to see patterns because our brains are wired to find them. Looking at how archetypes develop could be interesting. But seizing on certain connecting attributes, wording them in a certain way so they seem to connect better, and ignoring more numerous attributes that are not shared, I don't think gives us very much.
 
It's interesting to see the parallels but like HB, I think it goes a bit far to say this is definitely where they come from.

Take Jaime's laming. It could be Josua. It could be Luke Skywalker, or Beren, or Nuada or Tyr or Scaevola. Or nobody in particular, just a "hey this will work" when the story developed.
 
I agree with HB and TBP. It is interesting to look for archetypes but I would dispute that your examples are “obvious” derivatives as you state. The connections do not stand up to scrutiny.
 
It's interesting to see the parallels but like HB, I think it goes a bit far to say this is definitely where they come from.

Take Jaime's laming. It could be Josua. It could be Luke Skywalker, or Beren, or Nuada or Tyr or Scaevola. Or nobody in particular, just a "hey this will work" when the story developed.
Of course, it could very well have been Beren or Nuada or someone else. There are plenty of one-armed warriors in sci-fi and fantasy. But in the case of Josua, Jaime and Dany, there's another parallel. Joshua not only loses his hand, he runs away to the nomads and marries their chief's daughter. This detail is missing from other stories about of one-handed warriors. Given the influence of Ted Williams on George R.R. Martin, it is conceivable that Martin "split" Josua into Jaime and Dany (who also ends up with the nomads and marries their chief).

There's more than one parallel in the other examples, too.
 
I agree with HB and TBP. It is interesting to look for archetypes but I would dispute that your examples are “obvious” derivatives as you state. The connections do not stand up to scrutiny.
I don't think of them as archetypes, but as tropes or something like that. As far as I see it, an archetype is something ancient and centuries old. And I'm doing this "research" just for fun, not seriously. It's like adding zombies to classic books, like people do in one of the threads on this forum.
 
There is an explicit tribute to the characters from MS&T in A Clash of Kings. There are two argumentative brothers Josua and Elyas of house Willum.
 
There is an explicit tribute to the characters from MS&T in A Clash of Kings. There are two argumentative brothers Josua and Elyas of house Willum.
I know this. There's a scene in The Witchwood Crown that looks like a parody of Bran's fall from the tower. A drunken Prince Morgan falls off the tower, but nothing bad happens to him.

It's like these writers are exchanging easter eggs, or jokes. I don't know what the right way to call these writers' things.
 

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