How many characters?

[Ambriel]

So my, now, nine non-mc characters do in fact play specific roles within the group. While the main character is the most powerful with regard to magic and is sort of a “jack of all trades” type. The others have more specialized knowledge. There’s a physicist(1) in the group who has insight on how teleportation might work, or invisibility, or why time travel is a terrible idea. There’s a chemist(2) who can give insight into how to change which elements into other elements with the least amount of potential danger. There’s a surgeon(3) and a martial arts master(4) who have extensive knowledge of human and animal anatomy to provide insight on transformation into different animals and how to “cheat” on workouts. There’s an accountant(5) who is there to keep the government from noticed a subtle increase in income from the party. There’s a linguist(6) to read the texts that the group finds relating to the origin of the source of magic and enchant items as needed. There’s a researcher(7) to find those texts, and have access to them at her fingertips with a magically enhanced eidetic memory. The artist(8) is there to come up with crazy ideas of how magic might work, she’s also semi-prophetic. Then of course there is the mc’s love interest(9) who acts much like the dragons in Eragon, she has very limited magic abilities herself but she gives strength to the main character with her presence.

 

[Toby Frost]

I'd second a lot of what's been said here about the frequency of magic in this world. Do these people need to be magical? Does it add anything to their abilities? If I wanted to train as a swordsman, would it matter if the guy training me was fluent in French? If not, then there's no real reason to say that he is except to provide a bit more wackiness.

Also, what's the group dynamic here? Do all these guys go around in a bunch, like a Dungeons and Dragons party, or are some of them purely for support, waiting to patch up the hero? If they all do the same thing, I'd consider reducing the numbers and merging some of them together. Alien has seven human characters, who are all clearly distinguishable, which seems like a good number (obviously, you can't distinguish as easily by appearance in a novel as a film). The Thing and Aliens have more, and have to lose a few randos before the main group of survivors emerges (in both cases, it's about seven). It also sounds as if each character here only does one limited thing, which could get dull if that's all they do. For instance, a doctor could also be the hero's drinking buddy or romantic interest.

One method might be to make a few of them smaller characters - after all, not every mission would require its own accountant - who aren't seen very often. Such characters can be given wackier personalities, because then they won't bore or annoy the reader by appearing too often to do their thing. They might have magical ability, but it might be largely irrelevant to their work.

 

[Ambriel]

I'd second a lot of what's been said here about the frequency of magic in this world. Do these people need to be magical? Does it add anything to their abilities? If I wanted to train as a swordsman, would it matter if the guy training me was fluent in French? If not, then there's no real reason to say that he is except to provide a bit more wackiness.

Also, what's the group dynamic here? Do all these guys go around in a bunch, like a Dungeons and Dragons party, or are some of them purely for support, waiting to patch up the hero? If they all do the same thing, I'd consider reducing the numbers and merging some of them together. Alien has seven human characters, who are all clearly distinguishable, which seems like a good number (obviously, you can't distinguish as easily by appearance in a novel as a film). The Thing and Aliens have more, and have to lose a few randos before the main group of survivors emerges (in both cases, it's about seven). It also sounds as if each character here only does one limited thing, which could get dull if that's all they do. For instance, a doctor could also be the hero's drinking buddy or romantic interest.

One method might be to make a few of them smaller characters - after all, not every mission would require its own accountant - who aren't seen very often. Such characters can be given wackier personalities, because then they won't bore or annoy the reader by appearing too often to do their thing. They might have magical ability, but it might be largely irrelevant to their work.

Their magical ability comes from the idea they might need to defend themselves at some point. To keep from being used as pawns against the mc.

More like Baulder’s Gate 3 which is based on DND but the player has the option to pick 3 or 4 characters to take with them for the various quests.

Quite right, the accountant may only appear if the mc ends up dealing with the government, the artist is the quirky character who hides in the studio until they have an idea to present. Things like that.

 

[ColGray]

While the main character is the most powerful with regard to magic and is sort of a “jack of all trades” type

FYI, the first thing I think when i see that, is, Red Alert: Mary Sue/Gary Stu Incoming

If you're unfamiliar with the trope (Wikipedia copying here):

Portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses, extremely attractive, innately virtuous, and generally lacking meaningful character flaws. Usually female and almost always the main character, a Mary Sue is often an author's idealized self-insertion, and may serve as a form of wish fulfillment.

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

I'd second a lot of what's been said here about the frequency of magic in this world. Do these people need to be magical? Does it add anything to their abilities? If I wanted to train as a swordsman, would it matter if the guy training me was fluent in French? If not, then there's no real reason to say that he is except to provide a bit more wackiness.

Also, what's the group dynamic here? Do all these guys go around in a bunch, like a Dungeons and Dragons party, or are some of them purely for support, waiting to patch up the hero? If they all do the same thing, I'd consider reducing the numbers and merging some of them together. Alien has seven human characters, who are all clearly distinguishable, which seems like a good number (obviously, you can't distinguish as easily by appearance in a novel as a film). The Thing and Aliens have more, and have to lose a few randos before the main group of survivors emerges (in both cases, it's about seven). It also sounds as if each character here only does one limited thing, which could get dull if that's all they do. For instance, a doctor could also be the hero's drinking buddy or romantic interest.

One method might be to make a few of them smaller characters - after all, not every mission would require its own accountant - who aren't seen very often. Such characters can be given wackier personalities, because then they won't bore or annoy the reader by appearing too often to do their thing. They might have magical ability, but it might be largely irrelevant to their work.

I wasn't certain where to jump in so I jumped in here.

It seems that the more important question to answer is: How many of the non-main character inhabitants of the world have magic?
Is this a world where everyone has some amount of magic? Or are these 9 characters exceptional?

Also. Why are they hiding their income? And why are they using magic rather than typical tax shelters to hide their income?
Also, also. Why are they making secret income? Is it related to their use of magic? Why is this happening.

One danger to avoid is the Batman problem -- or Q problem. Both are the case where at the beginning of the show Batman or James Bond are cleverly provided the specific tool on their utility belt that they'll need to resolve some oddly specific problem along the way.

Another is the Harry Potter problem -- From book to book specific magic is introduced as something everyone has known about forever but is being used just now. Gee that would have been convenient to resolve most of the issues in the first book. Why wasn't it used then? The answer is that it is introduced to solve the specific problem introduced now and back-dated.

By going deep into the background people of the world you might find interesting ways to flesh out your main characters. Which introduces the D&D problem -- NPCs in D&D are generally introduced as foils for the characters to interact with. They not only do not have full lives, but the modules, if looked at with any critical eye, do not provide for the NPCs to have full lives. Can this village actually function? Or this city? While detailed macro-economic charts probably aren't necessary a brief review of function might be worthwhile.

Consider Gondor in book vs movie. In the book the Pelannor Fields are filled with Fields and Vines. Minus Tirith is largely fed by the crops growing around it and supplemented by food and supplies from Anfalas, Belfalas, Lebennin, etc. Tolkien hasn't created detailed trading charts but has thought about the basics. The movie on the other hand turns the fruitful Pelannor Fields into a blank plain. This is convenient for the staging of the film, but much less immersive for a person thinking about the world being created.

So what are the towns and cities like in your world? What is the technology level? How does magic impact technology on a societal level? How do average people get and maintain the basics of food, shelter, clothing?

How the poorest people in a society live is actually far more interesting than the ruling class. How is it that they all just don't starve to death or die from exposure and disease? What is that absolute minimal support society offers that keeps them alive? Going back to Minus Tirith, there is no evidence in book or film that there are any poor people there. I wonder how that works. Rohan seems to follow the "Great Hall" system of everyone is fed literally from the kings table, but not so much Minus Tirith.

All the ruling class can tell us is what are the most elaborate things that society can possibly create. That can be interesting but doesn't really say much about society as a whole.

So once you have a broad-strokes view of your world then ask what the main characters can do and why they are doing it.

 

[Ambriel]

FYI, the first thing I think when i see that, is, Red Alert: Mary Sue/Gary Stu Incoming

If you're unfamiliar with the trope (Wikipedia copying here):

Portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses, extremely attractive, innately virtuous, and generally lacking meaningful character flaws. Usually female and almost always the main character, a Mary Sue is often an author's idealized self-insertion, and may serve as a form of wish fulfillment.

I’m familiar with the trope. I’ve railed against the new Star Wars movies consistently because of Mary Sue Skywalker.

You needn’t worry, that is not my intent nor what I will allow to happen with my writing. The main character is based on me, but I know my flaws and the cast of characters surrounding him are based on people who are well versed in reminding me of my flaws. (Not in an unfriendly fashion). He’s not going to be a master of all trades, I do not claim expertise in any single area, neither will he. He is going to have general knowledge of various topics and is going to rely on his friends for their expertise. Just because he is the most powerful doesn’t make him the smartest, strongest, best for all situations.

Ex. I have a fight scene written where the main character cools the air temperature around his enemy down to absolute zero. One of my friends, whom the linguist is based on, pointed out to me that at absolute zero the bad guy would disintegrate because even the motion of the atoms would have stopped. Things like that are going to be pointed out to the character by his different experts.

 

[Ambriel]

I wasn't certain where to jump in so I jumped in here.

It seems that the more important question to answer is: How many of the non-main character inhabitants of the world have magic?
Is this a world where everyone has some amount of magic? Or are these 9 characters exceptional?

Also. Why are they hiding their income? And why are they using magic rather than typical tax shelters to hide their income?
Also, also. Why are they making secret income? Is it related to their use of magic? Why is this happening.

One danger to avoid is the Batman problem -- or Q problem. Both are the case where at the beginning of the show Batman or James Bond are cleverly provided the specific tool on their utility belt that they'll need to resolve some oddly specific problem along the way.

Another is the Harry Potter problem -- From book to book specific magic is introduced as something everyone has known about forever but is being used just now. Gee that would have been convenient to resolve most of the issues in the first book. Why wasn't it used then? The answer is that it is introduced to solve the specific problem introduced now and back-dated.

By going deep into the background people of the world you might find interesting ways to flesh out your main characters. Which introduces the D&D problem -- NPCs in D&D are generally introduced as foils for the characters to interact with. They not only do not have full lives, but the modules, if looked at with any critical eye, do not provide for the NPCs to have full lives. Can this village actually function? Or this city? While detailed macro-economic charts probably aren't necessary a brief review of function might be worthwhile.

Consider Gondor in book vs movie. In the book the Pelannor Fields are filled with Fields and Vines. Minus Tirith is largely fed by the crops growing around it and supplemented by food and supplies from Anfalas, Belfalas, Lebennin, etc. Tolkien hasn't created detailed trading charts but has thought about the basics. The movie on the other hand turns the fruitful Pelannor Fields into a blank plain. This is convenient for the staging of the film, but much less immersive for a person thinking about the world being created.

So what are the towns and cities like in your world? What is the technology level? How does magic impact technology on a societal level? How do average people get and maintain the basics of food, shelter, clothing?

How the poorest people in a society live is actually far more interesting than the ruling class. How is it that they all just don't starve to death or die from exposure and disease? What is that absolute minimal support society offers that keeps them alive? Going back to Minus Tirith, there is no evidence in book or film that there are any poor people there. I wonder how that works. Rohan seems to follow the "Great Hall" system of everyone is fed literally from the kings table, but not so much Minus Tirith.

All the ruling class can tell us is what are the most elaborate things that society can possibly create. That can be interesting but doesn't really say much about society as a whole.

So once you have a broad-strokes view of your world then ask what the main characters can do and why they are doing it.

Lots of wonderful questions here! I will give an answer to them once I am not confined to only the use of my phone at work.

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

I’m familiar with the trope. I’ve railed against the new Star Wars movies consistently because of Mary Sue Skywalker.

You needn’t worry, that is not my intent nor what I will allow to happen with my writing. The main character is based on me, but I know my flaws and the cast of characters surrounding him are based on people who are well versed in reminding me of my flaws. (Not in an unfriendly fashion). He’s not going to be a master of all trades, I do not claim expertise in any single area, neither will he. He is going to have general knowledge of various topics and is going to rely on his friends for their expertise. Just because he is the most powerful doesn’t make him the smartest, strongest, best for all situations.

Ex. I have a fight scene written where the main character cools the air temperature around his enemy down to absolute zero. One of my friends, whom the linguist is based on, pointed out to me that at absolute zero the bad guy would disintegrate because even the motion of the atoms would have stopped. Things like that are going to be pointed out to the character by his different experts.

I wonder what the result of reducing the temperature of anything in any environment to absolute zero. Consider any object in the room you are sitting in. If that object suddenly changed temperature to absolute zero that would affect everything in the room. What do the "laws of thermo-dynamics" suggest here? I'm guessing pretty frightening stuff.

This could be fun.

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

ACOUP - perhaps the best resource for writers of fantasy. This site includes a specific section for "world builders" This section is simply a set of links to articles. This section was last updated 9-26-2022. That means he's written 75 or so more weekly articles since then!

This is a blog by Dr. Bret C. Devereaux an ancient and military historian who currently teaches as a Teaching Assistant Professor at North Carolina State University.

He has blog series discussing the actual functioning of premodern society
economics, armies, armor, religion.
He has an entire five part series about bread. Clothing Iron and so much more.
His detailed analysis of The Siege of Gondor in book and film is amazing on so many levels.

He has analyzed in detail what various fantasy series got right and not right about basic functionality of pre-modern society and warfare in regards to their depiction in the specific works.

And don't stop at the "resources for world builders" page because there is SOOO MUCH MORE!

 

[Ambriel]

I wonder what the result of reducing the temperature of anything in any environment to absolute zero. Consider any object in the room you are sitting in. If that object suddenly changed temperature to absolute zero that would affect everything in the room. What do the "laws of thermo-dynamics" suggest here? I'm guessing pretty frightening stuff.

This could be fun.

It was the main characters idea of how to restrain his opponent at the time. In the book though had he mentioned that idea before hand the physicist would have said “you know that will disintegrate them right?” Or upon his return to the as yet unnamed home base and told the group what happened the physicist would’ve looked at him like he’s a dumbass and said “I could have told you that was going to happen, now we have to track down another one to extract information from.”

Oh, I forgot to mention, this story is taking place in the present with all available technology. I decided, for my first time writing, that it would be easier to operate in a world already built.

To, in a round about way, answer your question the laws of physics do affect magic and messing with them can have terrible consequences.

 

[ColGray]

ACOUP - perhaps the best resource for writers of fantasy. This site includes a specific section for "world builders" This section is simply a set of links to articles. This section was last updated 9-26-2022. That means he's written 75 or so more weekly articles since then!

This is a blog by Dr. Bret C. Devereaux an ancient and military historian who currently teaches as a Teaching Assistant Professor at North Carolina State University.

He has blog series discussing the actual functioning of premodern society
economics, armies, armor, religion.
He has an entire five part series about bread. Clothing Iron and so much more.
His detailed analysis of The Siege of Gondor in book and film is amazing on so many levels.

He has analyzed in detail what various fantasy series got right and not right about basic functionality of pre-modern society and warfare in regards to their depiction in the specific works.

And don't stop at the "resources for world builders" page because there is SOOO MUCH MORE!

OH YES! I love that site! That guy is bananas but so much fun! The long post on Star Wars Imperial Force Doctrine was amazing.

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

OH YES! I love that site! That guy is bananas but so much fun! The long post on Star Wars Imperial Force Doctrine was amazing.

I was introduced through his series on the Siege of Gondor and have been hooked ever since. Have you read his article on the worst general of WWI -- its awesome.

 

[Oligonicella]

Oh, I forgot to mention, this story is taking place in the present with all available technology. I decided, for my first time writing, that it would be easier to operate in a world already built.

To, in a round about way, answer your question the laws of physics do affect magic and messing with them can have terrible consequences.

Bingo to that. Since my series is fantasy and magic users go up and down the scale, of course some of them can transform. That's something I think is usually glossed over with "It's magic". Yeah, yeah - groan, stretch, snarl - that's still very high level stuff and if you dissect it, Vlad would burst into a very bright flame if he became a bat or rat.

Since I have an underlying source (nothing Star Warsy, more akin to radioactivity) for the magic in my universe, dimension, whatever, I try to keep it more relatable than a swirl of smoke. To explain things - or be able to - in a fantasy-like 'scientific' way I had to figure out how the magic would suppress the enormous burst of energy involved with shedding your mass down from 18kg to a 30gm bat. The incorporation of instantly conjured mass on the return trip is just as big a problem, only internal.

Then the complexity of the target stood out. You don't want to linger around transformed into a slug as even enhanced they don't think so well.

It didn't stop there. Voos is a very pretty woman and when she transforms, that vanity comes along. She loves bird forms to do things and they're always metallic. Feathers + iridescence = structural. Blues, greens and golds all take different refractive surfaces on all the gazillion barbules that she has to choose from and exert control over during the change. And unlike most, Voos can transform in moments.

Turns out, I have to work out what characters can do by power+knowledge+experience+etc, not just wave a wand and speak a word because - magic. This involves anything magical. It is highly important they can figure these things out as using the source shortens their life spans.

This was not long after the start. Thankfully, as it winds down there aren't any significant new characters I need to map out.

 

[Ambriel]

Bingo to that. Since my series is fantasy and magic users go up and down the scale, of course some of them can transform. That's something I think is usually glossed over with "It's magic". Yeah, yeah - groan, stretch, snarl - that's still very high level stuff and if you dissect it, Vlad would burst into a very bright flame if he became a bat or rat.

Since I have an underlying source (nothing Star Warsy, more akin to radioactivity) for the magic in my universe, dimension, whatever, I try to keep it more relatable than a swirl of smoke. To explain things - or be able to - in a fantasy-like 'scientific' way I had to figure out how the magic would suppress the enormous burst of energy involved with shedding your mass down from 18kg to a 30gm bat. The incorporation of instantly conjured mass on the return trip is just as big a problem, only internal.

Then the complexity of the target stood out. You don't want to linger around transformed into a slug as even enhanced they don't think so well.

It didn't stop there. Voos is a very pretty woman and when she transforms, that vanity comes along. She loves bird forms to do things and they're always metallic. Feathers + iridescence = structural. Blues, greens and golds all take different refractive surfaces on all the gazillion barbules that she has to choose from and exert control over during the change.

Turns out, I have to work out what characters can do by power+knowledge+experience+etc, not just wave a wand and speak a word because - magic. This involves anything magical. It is highly important they can figure these things out as using the source takes off their life spans.

This was not long after the start. Thankfully as it winds down there aren't any significant new characters I need to map out.

My idea is that shrinking one’s mass won’t work. In order for, for instance, the main character to become a bird that bird would have to remain the same weight. Which means either a really fat bird or a really really big bird. Which leads to other ways of flight, or traveling distances in short periods than turning into, at least a bird.

 

[Oligonicella]

My idea is that shrinking one’s mass won’t work. In order for, for instance, the main character to become a bird that bird would have to remain the same weight. Which means either a really fat bird or a really really big bird. Which leads to other ways of flight, or traveling distances in short periods than turning into, at least a bird.

The conjure changes the mass into energy like a nuclear power plant. So an enormous burst of uncontained energy (light) that is then captured similarly to a cell and converted back to the conjure for lack of a better out of context analogy.

And there are certainly other methods to travel; teleportation, levitation, flying carpet, etc. Each has a cost and the peeps are very good at estimating the cost of things and comparing (slice of life span and all). Sometimes you walk to the store, sometimes you take a bike.

 

[ColGray]

I was introduced through his series on the Siege of Gondor and have been hooked ever since. Have you read his article on the worst general of WWI -- its awesome.

i haven't... yet! Thank you for the link!

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

It was the main characters idea of how to restrain his opponent at the time. In the book though had he mentioned that idea before hand the physicist would have said “you know that will disintegrate them right?” Or upon his return to the as yet unnamed home base and told the group what happened the physicist would’ve looked at him like he’s a dumbass and said “I could have told you that was going to happen, now we have to track down another one to extract information from.”

Oh, I forgot to mention, this story is taking place in the present with all available technology. I decided, for my first time writing, that it would be easier to operate in a world already built.

To, in a round about way, answer your question the laws of physics do affect magic and messing with them can have terrible consequences.

Actually I was being literal.
If you have an object in the center of the room that is absolute zero the physics reactions would be horrifying.
1. The air would hit that point and crystalize.
2. Consider the explosive impact of water instantly becoming steam. Now reverse that and multiply by (I have no idea how many multiples). The type of elemental state change (directly from a gas to a solid) would be unbelievable.
3. The type of physical implosion in the space would be staggering. The suction would tear apart most buildings.
4. Anything that is sensitive to sudden air pressure changes within the "blast area" would be destroyed - such as living things, ears, eyes, plant tissue, flesh.
5. Whatever this zero temperature object was in physical contact with would instantly freeze. The floor for example. Even concrete will freeze and become brittle. When struck by the objects sucked in by the implosion all of the brittle surfaces would shatter - especially the person you froze. If you were on an upper level of a building the floor would simultaneously freeze, experience massive suction and be struck by the objects sucked against it. How long does this reaction take? (I don't know) but a guess would suggest how many floors would be destroyed.

So, not so much an abstract idea but the literal effects of such a temperature change.

But, if you are thinking about basic Newtonian physics, from whence does this massive amount of energy come? How many giga-joules of energy is this? Enough to bring that size object to absolute zero degrees would be something to look up. The Heart of Gold (Douglas Adams) was supposedly powered by tearing apart stars. Your example requires an amount of energy that would be noticed. Does he generally reduce the temperature of the planet by a degree or so? Maybe all the ambient energy (heat) from the immediate area causing snow across Western Europe in August perhaps?

Fun fact, In building science it is well recognized that all energy added to a building ultimately becomes heat. Respiration, your computer, that little blue light on your charger, the microwave oven clock. There is a joke that electric lights are simply inefficient heaters since some of the energy becomes light before it becomes heat. Ambient energy is generally felt as heat.

That could be a methodology for you. For each of the spells make an estimate of the amount of "work" required to complete that task, convert to a convenient unit of measure. BTUs might be useful since that are already used to measure heat. For much of the time simply have the ambient temperature drop according to the amount of work. Picking a regular lock probably wouldn't be noticed. Casting a fireball would require a commensurate reduction in temperature in the ambient atmosphere and surrounding objects. Or, at least this could be a primary source. It would allow people to recognize and trace the use of magic simply by weird changes in ambient temperature.

And, naturally, larger spells might require a bit more work because they are drawing energy from a different source.
Earth magic may be cooling the Earths Core.
Lunar magic may be drawing energy from the Moon's momentum.
Solar magic may draw directly from the Sun.
and so on.

This could help differentiate between the power available. The scale of potential energy is quite different in the Earth, Moon and Sun. But there are other factors -- Immediacy for example.

Isaac Asimov had a short story where scientist in two parallel universes exchanged atoms resulting unlimited energy on both sides of the divide until one of the scientists realized that the nature of the system was imbalanced resulting destabilization on their side, but scientist 2 refused to shut the system down (or didn't have the authority) because it was so great for them... I mention this because perhaps your mages are pulling energy from a parallel universe. BUT in doing so destabilizing both universes. If energy is conserved how much extra energy can wizards add to our own universe before our universe is no longer stable?