Genre--People Never Change

[-K2-]

No doubt as everyone here already knows, as happens with every story I write, I decided what broad genre interested me that moment--Sci-Fi, High Fantasy, (old) Western, Dystopian, etc--worked out a story line to grow as I went, and then proceeded to write, e.g., a science fiction story. With that foremost in my mind, I struggled to make the story fit some SF world that I needed to build ... and so it went. Slowed and hindered by that ever-looming precondition: a science fiction story.

It struck me; people are people, and even aliens are people in that we must keep them relatable to the people reading. I could write in its entirety a spy novel, mystery, war story, romance, action, adventure, whatever with ease--and then go back and insert or replace tiny bits, alter characters, or any other aspect of any genre and no one would be any wiser. The Sci-Fi becomes a Western, High Fantasy, or so on.

Though I have no intention of doing that--it feels somewhat dirty--it does point out to me that I worry too much about keeping the story in its genre lane, when it really doesn't matter.

K2

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

It has often been said* that if you can take out the sf (or fantasy) elements and you still have a story that works as a story, then it wasn't really sf (or fantasy) to begin with.

It seems to me that the reverse is true. If you already have a story that works as a story and then add in some elements to make it sf (or fantasy) then the result isn't really sf (or fantasy) either. It is as though you would be decorating the story with the trappings of the genre, and yet leaving out the essence of that genre.

It's not a matter of staying in the appropriate lane for the genre you have chosen—whatever that even means? and whatever it is, it sounds too restrictive when talking of our genres, which are as broad as the human imagination allows—but that at least one major element of the story, on which the plot (and possibly the characters and worldbuilding) depends, something, that is, that has consequences throughout the story, should be identifiable as speculative fiction.

That's it. Just one (could be more, but one is all that is required) so long as it is an essential feature of the story, which can't be swapped out for the trappings of another genre without the whole thing falling apart.

___
* I first heard it (read it?) round about 1990 and can't remember the source. Could it have been Turkey City? Perhaps someone here will know.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Forbidden Planet has its origins in Shakespeares' 'The Tempest'; does that make it more or less science fiction?

Authors can only write about what they know, and readers will often only read that which is relatable to them.

And of course there is no work of fiction that stays entirely within one genre, be that sci-fi, horror, fantasy, romance or any other branch or sub-genre.

If Shakespeare had placed a spaceship in one of his plays, would that have made it science fiction?

 

[BAYLOR]

Forbidden Planet has its origins in Shakespeares' 'The Tempest'; does that make it more or less science fiction?

Authors can only write about what they know, and readers will often only read that which is relatable to them.

And of course there is no work of fiction that stays entirely within one genre, be that sci-fi, horror, fantasy, romance or any other branch or sub-genre.

If Shakespeare had placed a spaceship in one of his plays, would that have made it science fiction?

Some of Shakespeare plays like Tempest , and McBeth and A Midsomer Nights Dreams do contains fantasy elements and falsity characters. Once could argue that this puts somewhat in the realm of fantasy.

 

[msstice]

It has often been said* that if you can take out the sf (or fantasy) elements and you still have a story that works as a story, then it wasn't really sf (or fantasy) to begin with.

This is an interesting discussion.

The definition I received for science fiction was similar: It is a story where a (often made up) scientific principle is such an integral part of the story that it would not work without it.

I'm no longer sure about the cleanness of this definition. So, for example, a story about twins meeting after one of whom made a near light speed journey and discussing philosophy and aging and life is a SF story by this definition, but it could also be easily told as an allegory, a fantasy or magical realistic story with the heart of it remaining the same.

In this respect I think we can only distinguish between realistic and fantastical stories, but that too is not _very_ clean. Modern stories often have the instantaneous nature of modern communication as a key part of things. These would be science fiction stories a hundred years ago. Or not?

 

[-K2-]

My point, I suppose, was to state that I get too fixated on genre and worry 'am I showing it,' which does not keep me from writing the story, but it slows me down or distracts me.

If I write a murder mystery that takes place on an ocean liner and remove all the aspects of an ocean going ship and the sea and replace them with an interstellar vessel and deep space, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts others would label it a science fiction. In both cases the people are trapped on the vessel and other than the ship, location, and all that is shown of them, it's still the same murder mystery. However, without the murder mystery aspect, it's not much of a story. In both cases, the dialogue and show through the characters' actions differentiates the genre. Or am I missing something?

I do get that some sci-fi (or any of the others) can have unique aspects or scenarios, but they all certainly don't. Or is Robinson Crusoe on Mars not considered a sci-fi movie? IMO, Enemy Mine is not nearly as good as Hell in the Pacific, yet makes the point.

That said, though possible, I think the show aspect of either story suffers in the writing by NOT considering the genre, particularly the sci-fi, but in the end, they don't make the story. The story shows the genre. I've often been so wrapped up in writing/showing an X-genre story, it slows me down writing the story itself. People are people, and though the setting influences their thoughts and actions, they'll still react to Y with Z.

200 years from now, someone will write a commonplace murder mystery that takes place on a ship to another star. Someone else will write a MM that takes place during inter-dimensional teleportation, and they'll call it sci-fi. Naturally, the person who writes one on 20th century ocean liner will be labeled what, historical fiction?

K2

 

[Steve Harrison]

It is very tricky and I know my own novels are usually such a mix of genres I have trouble picking one that encompasses enough of the story to use legitimately when querying. My first novel, a time travel historical romance adventure thriller - apologies to any missed genres - about an 18th century sailing ship, is described on Amazon as Time Travel Romance & Space Fleet Science Fiction!

Therefore, I really try not to think of this stuff when writing.

The thread also reminds me of the Sean Connery movie, OUTLAND (1981), being heavily marketed as HIGH NOON IN SPACE. It was certainly presented as science fiction at the time, though it could have been set anywhere, but I note on IMDb now it's described as action/crime/science fiction.

 

[Swank]

I disagree with the basic premise. Good SF isn't just a story with atomic rocket dust sprinkled on it. Good SF builds a compelling world out of both the plot and story elements that couldn't exist in another genre, except possibly fantasy. Plenty of other genres have SF elements but aren't SF because they don't construct new worlds.

If your SF writing doesn't suggest a novel universe where the story must take place, maybe you aren't really writing science fiction.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I think that you would be hard pressed to write a story that included aliens and/or extra terrestrial spaceships, and for it not to be accepted as within the genre of science fiction by most people.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

If I write a murder mystery that takes place on an ocean liner and remove all the aspects of an ocean going ship and the sea and replace them with an interstellar vessel and deep space, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts others would label it a science fiction. I

Some would label it science fiction, but many would dispute that label: agents, publishers, reviewers, critics, even science fiction readers who buy the book for the sake of the spaceship on the cover and are subsequently disappointed by what is inside. Because the story you describe could, as you say, just as easily take place on an ocean-going ship. As it stands, it makes no use of the many opportunities that a futuristic and extra-terrestrial setting offer, either to complicate or to solve the mystery, or both. Any claim to being a science fiction story is based on some superficial set-dressing.

Now suppose, as a contrasting example, that far-future forensic science comes into play in solving that murder. Then the story would be legitimately science fiction, and no questions asked. Or suppose that the murder was committed by a member of an alien race. Or both. Say the murder scene is strewn with non-human DNA—in fact, the chemistry is so strange there is some question whether it is even DNA (or the extra-terrestrial equivalent of DNA) at all. But at last, after one theory of the crime after another is eliminated, the murderer is revealed as a shape-shifting alien bounty hunter who has been passing him/her/itself as human. Or perhaps he's some sort of legitimate law enforcement officer of an alien civilization, assigned to track down and execute the victim who is a convicted criminal, tried and condemned under an alien criminal code. The captain of the ship now has the headache of conflicting jurisdictions (not to mention conflicting ideas of crime and punishment, justice, etc. which may seem incomprehensible or even downright wicked to human understanding, not to mention they are treading on our toes by executing a criminal on one of our ships . . . let's hope there is at least one xeno-diplomat on board skilled enough to work it all out without precipitating a crisis) . This is a story that could only take place in a science fiction novel. It may, in the way it is written end up as good science fiction or bad, soft science fiction or hard, but it is definitely science fiction. It doesn't matter that it also works as a mystery novel, because a story can fall into more than one genre.

And of course this is just one of myriad possibilities for turning it into a science fiction story. There are so many possible ways to do it, that I would hope the hypothetical author has sufficient imagination to come up with something.

 

[Danny McG]

Or perhaps he's some sort of legitimate law enforcement officer of an alien civilization, assigned to track down and execute the victim who is a convicted criminal, tried and condemned under an alien criminal code. The captain of the ship now has the headache of conflicting jurisdictions (not to mention conflicting ideas of crime and punishment, justice, etc. which may seem incomprehensible or even downright wicked to human understanding, not to mention they are treading on our toes by executing a criminal on one of our ships . . . let's hope there is at least one xeno-diplomat on board skilled enough to work it all out without precipitating a crisis) . This is a story that could only take place in a science fiction novel.

Someone write that book please, I'd buy it.

 

[AnRoinnUltra]

Forbidden Planet has its origins in Shakespeares' 'The Tempest'

I'm guest narrator on an upcoming audio drama retelling of Forbidden Planet by MOTA -the script (not mine) does what I think is a great job of respecting the genre while poking fun at all the tropes. It's with the producers now but is out in August and might be worth a listen in ref to the thread. I think PM is right, most people I know will just label fiction with any novel science or outer space connection as 'Sci-Fi'.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I understand what Teresa is saying, although stories that are well grounded in far more contemporary settings - Forbidden Planet (The Tempest), Star Wars and Battle Beyond the Stars (Seven Samurai), Star Trek (Westerns), Outland (High Noon) etc - all have their own appeal, and (in my opinion) count as science fiction.

 

[Astro Pen]

There's the shape of the dress
There's the colour of the dress

At the outset neither one precludes, or demands, the other.
But once you have cut the cloth you will have a devil of a job changing your mind.

Unless you have a long history, which is to say there are fan base expectations, I would just write it and decide the genre label when it's done.

 

[Biskit]

If Shakespeare had placed a spaceship in one of his plays, would that have made it science fiction?

Only if it was propelled by great canvas sails catching the heavenly winds. If it ran on fairy dust then it would be fantasy.

 

[BAYLOR]

To me, a good story is a good story regardless of genre or whatever elements the author chooses to use .

 

[JunkMonkey]

No doubt as everyone here already knows, as happens with every story I write, I decided what broad genre interested me that moment--Sci-Fi, High Fantasy, (old) Western, Dystopian, etc--worked out a story line to grow as I went, and then proceeded to write, e.g., a science fiction story. With that foremost in my mind, I struggled to make the story fit some SF world that I needed to build ... and so it went. Slowed and hindered by that ever-looming precondition: a science fiction story.

It struck me; people are people, and even aliens are people in that we must keep them relatable to the people reading. I could write in its entirety a spy novel, mystery, war story, romance, action, adventure, whatever with ease--and then go back and insert or replace tiny bits, alter characters, or any other aspect of any genre and no one would be any wiser. The Sci-Fi becomes a Western, High Fantasy, or so on.

Though I have no intention of doing that--it feels somewhat dirty--it does point out to me that I worry too much about keeping the story in its genre lane, when it really doesn't matter.

K2

The book I'm reading at the moment is essentially, in structure and detail, a whodunnit police thriller with the cops on the trail of a serial killer. It's set on a distant world with human investigators called in to solve a series of crimes (or one massive crime) perpetrated on the upper echelons of a very odd, and very alien, non humanoid culture. The book's structure may well have been lifted page by page from any potboiler cops and crime novel but the aliens are sufficiently alien and the murder weapon so obscure (though I have a strong suspicion I know what's going on) that I'm hooked. One of the problems that the book's characters have is that, to the aliens all the humans look alike - though they are able to distinguish males from female, but only when they are naked - and the humans can't tell any of the catapillar/sluglike aliens from any of the anothers. Which is a bit of a problem when it comes to identifying suspects, and leads to the human detective accidentally arresting his alien homologue in a raid. It's all very intriguing and entertaining.

My point is that yes, a detective novel may well have been turned into a SF novel by the method you suggest, but the world building and consequences of the changes are consistent and allowed to grow. It worked.

 

[Christine Wheelwright]

It has often been said* that if you can take out the sf (or fantasy) elements and you still have a story that works as a story, then it wasn't really sf (or fantasy) to begin with.

I can't find the quote now, but I think it might have been Brian Aldiss who once said something like:

Science Fiction's no good, they say.
But what if it is good?
Well, then its not Science Fiction!

Personally, I see SF as simply a vehicle for creating interesting situations to put characters into, in a way that might be harder in a real world setting. Then we get to see the dilemmas that face them and their reactions. We can examine various directions a society might take (utopias, dystopias, or just general weirdness that are outside our normal experience). I'm less interested in technological aspects, other than as a mechanism that facilitates the storyline. This is perhaps because I have no real belief that man will ever progress to the kind of interstellar, alien-encountering scenarios depicted by shows like Star Trek. But they can still be hugely entertaining and thought-provoking stories.

 

[msstice]

I think that you would be hard pressed to write a story that included aliens and/or extra terrestrial spaceships, and for it not to be accepted as within the genre of science fiction by most people.

I've held off watching the movie Spaceman: The trailers and posters have a giant tarantula talking to the astronaut. I have a sneaking suspicion it's an artsy fartsy movie rather than an actual SF movie. Like, all the synopses tell me it's an alien, but I suspect I'm going to be suckered into a boring philosophical movie where it's all happening in the astronaut's head and it's some kind of rumination of life.

 

[msstice]

Personally, I see SF as simply a vehicle for creating interesting situations to put characters into, in a way that might be harder in a real world setting. Then we get to see the dilemmas that face them and their reactions.

+1

When I was a teen, and very, very into a future with flying cars and moon bases (and those were still exciting and novel concepts) I would say SF was any story where flying cars and moon bases played a major explicit role. The SF I read was heavy on ideas and light on plot character. (The "no good" writing I'm guessing). I think that is called "hard SF" now.

Now that I've read a few such stories and have had a few more life experiences, I prefer a mix: I like to see more descriptions of the people living in this world and a bit of the social and economic systems (but not too much!). SF allows us to do these experiments: what if there was no want (e.g. Star Trek) what if there was no water, what if there were very few people etc etc.

I like those kind of stories now.