Help required

[Paul Meccano]

Hi all.
I’ve recently completed a reasonably bulky novel, currently running at 165000 edited words.
Yes, I know; I listened to the school of thought: tell your story.
That said, knowing how currently I have a further five novels to complete (each a stand-alone in a world-built series) I’ve recently split the whole thus creating a two-book project.
I’ve almost finished the first, but, at the same time have struggled for the fact that my third and edited draft was far too well written to split with great effect.
So, what to do?
Essentially so, the book has a strong plot that runs in time order. The story has four main characters, each of whom has an important role, each being a member of the same family with different needs.
The problem comes when I take a chapter and plug it into a new document, then the next, and so on. I’ve tried leaving chapters out entirely, I’ve tried to rearrange the whole, changing aspects, character arcs, everything, but each time I discover a flaw.
So, here’s the question.
Do I leave one book on a cliff hanger (I can take reasonable precautions not to leave my readers swearing, yet at present am unable to tie the plot up, including B characters, at least, not quite enough to offer a feel of completion) personally feeling a cheat for that. Or, instead, do I leave it bulky, knowing I’ll never be accepted for traditional publishing.

Thoughts please
Gratitudes.

 

[Yozh]

Have you had others read through the most recent draft? Personally, I would think that if the plot structure works as one novel, then it would be better to look at “trimming the fat” in the current 165000 words rather than splitting the whole. Beta readers or a developmental editor could help identify spots that are slow or verbose.

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

You must be referring to a rule of thumb novel length that I am not familiar with. 165,000 words is not incredibly long for a fantasy novel. It's about 1.7 Hobbits (Hobbit 96,000 +/-) but shorter than many others. Shorter than Harry Potter books 4-7.

I just found this list of book word counts:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/hsl0o8/fantasy_word_counts_an_overhaul_of_many_of_the

Good Luck whatever your solution.

 

[Paul Meccano]

Well, really I was referring to as yet unpublished authorial work. Once you’ve been published the risks for any publisher are reduced. I’ve heard you have to be exceptionally gifted to break through over 125000 words, that due to printing costs and the initial risk any publisher must take.
I’m happy to be told otherwise.
And good list.
Thanks

 

[Paul Meccano]

Have you had others read through the most recent draft? Personally, I would think that if the plot structure works as one novel, then it would be better to look at “trimming the fat” in the current 165000 words rather than splitting the whole. Beta readers or a developmental editor could help identify spots that are slow or verbose.

Fair questions.
I'm going to post a section in Critique here.
No one has yet read my story. In fact, I’ve been struggling to conclude because I think it’s too long – a fear that comes from reading threads like this one. Some say that too long is problematic; others say it isn't. So, what I'm hoping for is some definitive, like publishers aren't concerned or publishers won't print anything over X without Y, because, although I get the editing elephant-in-the-room, if editing is complete with any chaff already removed, then surely it's all down to story.

 

[The Judge]

So, what I'm hoping for is some definitive, like publishers aren't concerned or publishers won't print anything over X without Y, because, although I get the editing elephant-in-the-room, if editing is complete with any chaff already removed, then surely it's all down to story.

If it's of any help, in 2019 I had separate one-to-one meetings with Jo Fletcher (publisher) and Sandra Sawicka (agent) regarding one of my fantasies which then stood at 148k. JF was unequivocal -- I had to get it under 120k and her husband (an agent) wouldn't look at it either until it was there; SS was less dogmatic, just saying I needed to take some off, without specifying how much, but basically the more the better.

The Andromeda Award comp for unagented US and UK writers also specified a max 120k word count for entries, and that was exclusively for SF and fantasy novels, so clearly reflects what two agencies are looking for in the genre.

As to editing being complete, despite the fact I thought I'd already pruned that particular fantasy to the bone in 2019, since the m/s originally stood at 175k, I've since been able to get it down to 127k. Still not quite there, but at least I'm now in a range where it's less likely to be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Paul Meccano]

If it's of any help, in 2019 I had separate one-to-one meetings with Jo Fletcher (publisher) and Sandra Sawicka (agent) regarding one of my fantasies which then stood at 148k. JF was unequivocal -- I had to get it under 120k and her husband (an agent) wouldn't look at it either until it was there; SS was less dogmatic, just saying I needed to take some off, without specifying how much, but basically the more the better.

The Andromeda Award comp for unagented US and UK writers also specified a max 120k word count for entries, and that was exclusively for SF and fantasy novels, so clearly reflects what two agencies are looking for in the genre.

As to editing being complete, despite the fact I thought I'd already pruned that particular fantasy to the bone in 2019, since the m/s originally stood at 175k, I've since been able to get it down to 127k. Still not quite there, but at least I'm now in a range where it's less likely to be dismissed out of hand.

Thanks

That is exactly what I was looking for, although I still have a way to go if I hope to split my story.
What aspects have been the most difficult to cull for you? Personally, I struggle to lose descriptions between dialogue, and while my world-building takes up space, I worry that losing either will remove all interest.
So, how best to decern?
Is there a thread on this? Maybe it's a decent editing book I need.

 

[The Judge]

What aspects have been the most difficult to cull for you? Personally, I struggle to lose descriptions between dialogue, and while my world-building takes up space, I worry that losing either will remove all interest.

I don't have a "most difficult" aspect -- it's all like pulling teeth as I hate losing anything I've written. I've two techniques, though:

• seeing if I can express the same thing in fewer words by rearranging the sentence/paragraph, thus saving the idea if not the wording
• looking closely at each paragraph (drilling down into each sentence/each word as necessary) and asking myself if it adds anything, and whether the story or reading experience would be changed if it were omitted.

Undoubtedly, years of the Challenges here have helped me with this, as I'm invariably well over word count and have to prune with a machete to enter, but nonetheless it still takes several passes of a chapter before I've finished, and even then I'll come back and find more which can go. (Though it's also the case that I sometimes have to add back in, as something becomes too curt.)

So, how best to decern?

Experience, I suppose, and in the meantime, getting someone else to read it and offer feedback.

Is there a thread on this?

There are many threads with "editing" in the title which might be worth a look, but this recent one by ColGray may well be of most help Editing Exercise

 

[Paul Meccano]

I don't have a "most difficult" aspect -- it's all like pulling teeth as I hate losing anything I've written. I've two techniques, though:

• seeing if I can express the same thing in fewer words by rearranging the sentence/paragraph, thus saving the idea if not the wording
• looking closely at each paragraph (drilling down into each sentence/each word as necessary) and asking myself if it adds anything, and whether the story or reading experience would be changed if it were omitted.

Undoubtedly, years of the Challenges here have helped me with this, as I'm invariably well over word count and have to prune with a machete to enter, but nonetheless it still takes several passes of a chapter before I've finished, and even then I'll come back and find more which can go. (Though it's also the case that I sometimes have to add back in, as something becomes too curt.)


Experience, I suppose, and in the meantime, getting someone else to read it and offer feedback.


There are many threads with "editing" in the title which might be worth a look, but this recent one by ColGray may well be of most help Editing Exercise

Much appreciated.
I’d like to say my chainsaw is coming out, but I expect your “pulling teeth” analogy is more the point. Challenge accepted.
I’ve shared an excerpt I know you will soon see, so perhaps you can start pulling while I choose to look away.

Solid thanks, you’ve been a star.

 

[tinkerdan]

I'm with some of the other thoughts here; time to start making some serious edits.

Beat those spears into pruning shears and start trimming the fat that doesn't need to be there.

Some of what you need to cut might be in where you are overthinking the world building, you need to consider how much information the reader needs and discover where you might be overloading them with things that you want in there.

 

[Paul Meccano]

I'm with some of the other thoughts here; time to start making some serious edits.

Beat those spears into pruning shears and start trimming the fat that doesn't need to be there.

Some of what you need to cut might be in where you are overthinking the world building, you need to consider how much information the reader needs and discover where you might be overloading them with things that you want in there.

That sounds about right. I truly have immersed myself, so find it difficult to judge when, exactly, certain details are required. Personally I prefer strong hints to wandering description, but while this novel runs over twenty four hours, with the separate movement of three characters through different part of the city being a big part of the plot, description matters.
Essentially so, the city is seen from three different perspectives, and hopefully (he says) this will inform the reader of character, as well as geographic position.
How we each see the world is important to me, and how others react to uninhabitable Earth, at some point in the future, I feel, can make a difference to this now.
So, my question: which parts do you see as not required in this particular piece?

Thanks in advance.

 

[tinkerdan]

My work had some similarity to yours.
I understand a bit of the problem, however It can work to your advantage if you take the mindset of finding the character that can inject the most essential bits of infodump in the fewest words.
My guess would be that you might be dumping a lot of information in massive chunks and possibly even repeating information in the guise of expanded information. Look for redundancy. Look for places where there might be too much information--this is going to be difficult and might be facilitated by finding someone who can read this all fresh and point out what they see.

The first time I knuckled under and handed the stuff off I got a wakeup call and could easily see that I had a lot of work to do to clean things up.

You need to chose the things that are essential to the story rather than your concept of what the reader needs to know. Ask instead what the reader needs to both enjoy and make sense of the story rather than trying to dazzle them with the massive world that resides inside your head.

It's not so much of what you are trying to put in as it is how you are putting it in and add to that that old thing about killing your babies because a lot of the bulk can be all those things you keep trying to convince yourself you just can't cut.

Most of all look at the POV(chose the POV that can best showcase things)and recognize where you are forcing the POV to express your view of the world and interfering with how that character actually sees your world--this can be difficult, but you should be able to see that if you have a clear idea of what that characters mind set is and how they see the world. Use the stuff from their POV and get rid of the stuff you are forcing into the rest of their scene.