Leni Riefenstahl

[Foxbat]

This woman has always been a bit of an enigma - or has she?
Her death will not quiet the debate of her place in history.
A film maker ahead of her time, she pioneered a variety of groundbreaking techniques and was well respected.
And yet, this was the same woman who made Triumph of the Will which glorified the Nazi Nuremburg rally of 1934. A close friend of Hitler, she refused to apologise for her work. She claimed that what she produced was art and, therefore, transcended politics. But surely art has a responsibility?

For all her skill I feel she was misguided and, sadly, went to the grave that way.

 

[GnomeoftheWest]

Pioneering Nazi Sympathizer: isn't that an oxymoron?

 

[littlemissattitude]

Has anyone here ever seen "Triumph of the Will"?

Really frightening film, all the more so because it wasn't a hack job. I saw it in a film class as an example of the propaganda film.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I don't think I've seen the entire thing, but initially I'm tempted to agree with her premise that film should transcend politics.

Obviously it's going to be hard to sympathise with her political position, but the point of art is supposed to transcend their makers, yes?

However, the subject of Riefenstahl is something I should look more into, before I stumble into an awful faux pas.

 

[Foxbat]

Brian: I hesitated before I started this post for roughly the same reason as yourself..it is easy to cause knee-jerk reactions by using a misplaced word or phrase with such a subject.

As for Triumph of the Will - I have it, and yes, it is frightening. The whole feeling you get from the film is the same sense of fear you get when the young Nazi stands up and sings Tomorrow Belongs To Me in Cabaret. - You know there is something terrible going on here.

On the subject of art: I don't believe art has the right to pretend it does not have responsibility. If you create a piece of art then you must be prepared to live with the consequences of that creation. Leni Riefenstahl refused to do this.

It may also be worth pointing out that she did not declare herself a Nazi sympathiser - that was done for her at Nuremburg where she was cleared of collaboration but declared a sympathiser.

It still does not detract from her skill as a film maker.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Certainly all action has some responsibility - but it would be a dangerous thing if we were to judge people on what may be something close to a terribly arbitary scale.

Carl Orff wrote to entertain the Nazis, but the opening (and close) to "Carmina Burana" ("O Fortuna") is possibly the most popular choral work of the 20th century.

Plus: von Braun - who invented and engineered the V2 rocket that caused so much fear in London - was eagerly snapped up by the US military-industrial complex, and was instrumental in developing the space age.

So to make a pariah of a film-maker, but to applaud the musician and missile designer, would be a strange moral scale to work from.

The real problem with Nazi ideology wasn't that it was a political freak, but rather an extension of already present anti-semitic tensions across Bavaria and Austria. So if Riefenstahl remained loyal to those seem ideals we can make a political judgement of her beliefs.

But as for her film work itself - hopefully, that is judged on its own merit - whatever those may or may not be.

After all, since when does the art world judge other artists for their politics first?

 

[Foxbat]

There is much truth in what you say, particularly regarding von Braun. Certainly there are double standards at work here.

The problem with Riefenstahl was her refusal to accept the glorification of Nazi Germany in her work. An example of her stubbornness was the denial of the use of concentration camp victims (gypsy) in one of her films. In the fifties, evidence was uncovered which proved that she did in fact use these people as extras.

She once made a statement along the lines that she, like millions of others, believed that Hitler was about to bring forth a new age and that nobody foresaw the horrors yet to come.
I am sure that there were many people ready to gloat if she did repent her past and perhaps that is why she never did.

 

[GnomeoftheWest]

Sorry for the Knee-Jerk. Just very ashamed of my German heritage....
Art is only art for the Artist. For everyone else it's pretension. You can't assume anyone will "get it".

 

[dwndrgn]

I don't know anythink about the woman but I will say that many artists create art with a specific reaction in mind - for example some may want an 'ah...beauty' reaction or some may want their viewers to be repulsed or some may just want amazement. If her film work was made to illustrate the ideals of the Nazis, then that is all it is, not necessaryily a glorification but more of an educatioin.

As for using 'camp extras' she had to be aware that they were in an inhumane situation and yet used them for her own gain - regardless of whether or not she was a sympathizer, I would have to dislike her for that fact alone.

 

[kiwimac]

I too have a copy of Triumph of the Will, IMO, it is simply one of the best art films ever made, the juxtapositions of images, the mixture of classical music with soundtrack rightly won her a Gold Medal in Paris in 1937.

As for Hitler / Nazism we forget them at our peril, I have seen a lot of writing about Herr Hitler, any number of movies / Documentaries / Plays & all of them miss the point that he was not some unimaginable force of evil but, finally and fragilely, all too human.

His evil was caused by human prejudices writ large with power to enforce them, his evil was that he could subjugate his morals to his nationalism. A very interesting man in many ways. The world is presumably better for his passing but sometimes, in the dark of night, I wonder about might have beens!

As for Gnome of the West, don't be ashamed of your heritage. You were hardly responsible for Hitler's rise to power and not at all responsible for being German. At least one of my forebears emigrated from Germany to NZ before WW1, I bear no shame for that. The Germans are a cultured people and I hardly had a choice in my antecedents

.

Kiwimac

 

[Brian G Turner]

Certainly I agree with those comments about Hitler - I personally see him and the Nazi party as a natural consequence of the events of the time - the ingrained anti-Semiticism of Bavaria, coupled with the humiliation of Germany in the treaty of Versailles. It was perhaps a stage waiting for actors.

I have to be careful with my comments, though, simply because I'm not properly familiar with the film - and the events surrounding it. Certainly if someone is using concentration camp detainees in film, but denying the moral associations of using them, I can certainly glimpse just a little of the strong objections and controversy surrounding her.

At the end of the day, I guess it's simply a case that we can sometimes be more forgiving of those, who with sincerity and humility, can say they were wrong and are sorry for being so. Perhaps death of those who refuse to admit that somehow make us feel morally cheated.

 

[kiwimac]

Brian,

I'm not at all sure the charge concerning the Gypsies was ever proved. Certainly (AFAIK) a court in the 50s or 60s could not decide at all & declared there was no case for her to answer.

Kiwimac

 

[Foxbat]

Jodie Foster is travelling to Germany next year to begin production on a film of Leni's life. I hope it will be done in a manner which does not descend into farce or sensationalism. Foster has always struck me as an artist of some integrity so, hopefully, the film will be worth watching (and perhaps may deal with some of the points we have debated on this forum).

 

[littlemissattitude]

Intersting. Jodie Foster is pretty much known for not pulling punches. Probably a good person to be making such a film. I look forward to seeing it when it is finished.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Either way, it all sounds like an interesting topic to cover. That's going to have to be an interesting film to watch out for, and see how the treatment is done.