asimov's "second foundation"

[cfalcon]

hi,
i just read the original 3 books of the series and i must say i loved them. i have one question regarding the plot however. i think i missed it or something. i don't understand why the first foundation wanted to destroy the second foundation. just because a millenia later the psychologists would rule over the phyical scientists? but shouldn't the first foundation accept that because seldon himself wanted it that way? why would they want to destroy the second foundation when it was part of seldon's (who had godlike status) plan. thanx a lot.

 

[ThulsaDoom]

Ironically, I've just finished reading them myself! (Had them for years, but never got round to it!)
Basically, I'd say it's because, while in the abstract, the Second Foundation took on a kind of mystical positive force in the foundationist's mind's. However, once they became a solid reality, they were seen as a threat, because people must always feel they have some element of free will, and the fear became that of the Second Foundation being a shadowy overlord that took away free, and controlled them.

If you take religion and god as an example. While people may state "God has a plan for everything" They have comfort in an over-riding force that gives their lives purpose. It's a comforting abstract with no proof.
However, were god to actually come down and say: "Yes, I have a plan, and you have no control of your actions, no free will, and everything is pre-determined" Many people would become frightened, and think they had no control of their lives at all, which is the ultimate fear.

 

[ajdecon]

I think a large part of it was that the First Foundationists wanted to do things their own way, without interference. After all, Seldon's Plan was originally toppled by the Mule; when they rebuilt their empire, and discovered things were magically back on track... well, I'd be suspicious myself! It was obvious that some other force was actually manipulating them to re-create the Plan, and that the Second Foundation was going to rule the Empire that the First Foundationists were working so hard to build.

If I spent a millenium creating a Galactic Empire, I would certainly want to run it myself. Not turn it over to a bunch of lazy psychologists... ;-)

 

[Foxbat]

I agree with what's been said here but to follow on from cfalcon's question - take Lenin and Stalin as an analogy. As soon as Stalin came into power, he began severing ties with all the Leninists and old ways. He was creating a Communist Empire the way he saw fit. I think this is a human trait and, although there is logic in accepting it because it was part of Seldon's plan, their own need for power and control means that, ultimately the must reject the Second Foundation.

 

[cfalcon]

yea i see what you mean.

btw are the next two books good? i have heard some bad things about them. also after the foundation series what else is good by asimov? before this i actually didn't know anything about asimov (or science fiction even) except his name. i went to the library and picked up a random asimov book and it turned out to be the first foundation. only later did i learn about its significance in sf. so i would appreciate it if some other books by asimov could be suggested. (i heard of the robot series and the movie but whats the order i should read that series in?) thanx a lot.

 

[Foxbat]

I Robot is probably worth a read (but somewhat dated nowadays). Foundation's Edge isn't too bad but then it starts to slide a bit (although you might find it worth pursuing as Asimov starts to bolt his Robot stories into the Foundation Universe).

From what I remember, I Robot was originally a series of stories that he eventually released as a novel. Haven't seen the film so can't comment on that.

Personally, I was a bigger fan of Asimov's short stories rather than his novels. There are tons out there varying from very good to mediocre. You can probably pick up his collections fairly cheaply if you check out second hand bookshops

 

[ajdecon]

I agree with Foxbat: Asimov's short stories are much much better than his novels. He works really well in the short format, where he comes up with a creative idea, hits the punchline and ends it there. When he tries to go novel-length, it tends to go badly. The Foundation novels did alright--but then they were originally published as serials of short stories.

My advice is to read I, Robot, and then go for one of his big collections like Robot Dreams. He also wrote some great fantasy shorts, collected in Azazel.

 

[finvarre]

Have you read the prequels to the Foundation cycle?

I, too, have recently finished reading the 5 Foundation books and am considering reading the prequels. I know about the ones written by Asimov, but what about the Prelude by Bear, Benford and Brin? Has anyone read it and could comment on it? I think it's about Seldon's life but then so is Forward the Foundation and Prelude to Foundation by Asimov himself, am I correct? So what was the point of writing about the same period of time?

As for the last 2 books of the 5, they are maybe not as intense as the first three, but there are some new excellent ideas in them, and then what I liked was that they were focused on the same group of people - they're more like a duology, really, with Foundation and Earth starting almost exactly where Foundation's Edge ended. I liked the characters. "Foundation" was undoubtedly the best book of the series, but I would have liked to read more about Salvor Hardin, for instance. But that may be due to the fact that I prefer novels to short stories as a rule.

 

[Fried Egg]

A bit late to contribute to this discussion but I would like to say that "Foundation's Edge" and "Foundation & Earth" are both brilliant books and definitely worth reading after the original trilogy. They are different in tone but good in their own way.

Then I would say that it's worth going on to read "Prelude to the Foundation" and "Foward the Foundation!". In addition, it is worth reading "Caves of Steel", "Naked Sun", "Robots of Dawn" & "Robots and Empire" (in that order) because they're great books and (in the last two) it ties in heavilly with the Foundation series.

I would also recommend "The Gods Themselves" which was an excellent novel (unrelated to foundation).

I also disagree with those posters who say his short stores are best. I have read some of his robot stories but just don't enjoy them as much as his full length novels.

 

[j d worthington]

There's also a connection between some aspects of the Foundation books, the Robot books, and the novel The End of Eternity -- something he notes in one of his forewords, as I recall....

While I did feel that the quality slipped somewhat here and there, I've read the entire series (from the tales in I, Robot onward) twice, and found that the later novels actually work better the second time around, as he was more subtle in his approach with some things later in his career.

 

[ambershadow]

The foundation stories are what introduced me to SiFi so I have always held a special place on my bookshelf for his books. Those books started me on a whole new realm of literature which I still enjoy today. (I read those books 35 years ago)

 

[wordwiz]

Greetings,

I'm new (you can tell by this being my first post!) but a fan of Asimov for 30 years or more.

Does anyone recall reading about a game called Sprouts in Foundation and Empire? IIRC, it was how command of a spaceship was determined.

Mike

 

[dekket]

The Prelude books by Bear, Benford and Brin are set in/around the time frame between Forward the Foundation and Prelude to Foundation and the beginning of Foundation.

It introduces a new "enemy" of humanity, in the form of a disease - "Chaos" that has caused the destruction of all human civilisations that reach a certain point in its development.

The first book deals with a period during Hari Seldon as First Minister (and deals a lot with artificial intelligences and with Robots), the second during the establishment of the core of mentallics that become Second Foundation (and deals a lot with a secret policeman obsessed with mind controlling robots), whilst the third is set just after Hari records his messages for the time vault, when he is worried about the effects of Chaos on his psychohistory (and deals a lot with the conflicts between Calvinian, Giskardian, minus one law and nemesis Robot societies, and their all wanting Hari to judge between them).

 

[ghost8772]

if you made it through the original foundation trilogy, then the subsequent books, Edge and Earth will be weasier to read. the whole issue with Second Foundation was more under the heading of finding out that there is a sibling to take over the crown in case the eldest fails. ego puncturer there, SO first and foremost kill the backup plan to PROVE that you won't fail. (second foundationers understood this idea and gave up a plausible group for scapegoathood then faded back into the background)the other books by asimov for Foundation (and forward trhe foundation which I believe was actually written by Bear, not Asimov) are decent reads, and weren't as disjointed as the stories he was publishing weekly, monthly, or however the periodical was being published that he posted his stories in. Foundation and Earth, Prelude to Foundation and The Robot Novels charcters, tied in with those. (novels not collected short stories)