Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar (Sword)- Discussion

[rune]

There were two winners for the August Series discussion. This is one of them.

Who's read it? What did you think of it? What are your favourite scenes/characters?

What dont you like about it?

 

[dwndrgn]

I've only read a couple of these as they were both in the same volume - the only volume available in my library.

I did quite enjoy the stories. I found them fanciful, humorous, full of color and imagination and a great deal of knowledge about human relationships.

Can't say as to who my fave is, probably one of the gods , they seem to all be such children! Or maybe the young whore/cabin girl/assassin/priestess who's name I can't recall. She seems to be true to herself but full of mystery, and so seemingly innocent...

 

[Brys]

I've read the first collection in the Fantasy Masterworks series. Swords and Deviltry, the first book, showed some of the best written sword and sorcery I've ever seen, with a moving plot (as in emotionally, obviously) and a great introduction to the characters of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser in the Snow Women and the Unholy Grail, showing Leiber to be an author far ahead of his time with ambiguity in his characters, as well as showing some of the antics that would be their trademark.

Other stories (such as Lean times in Lankhmar) were extremely humourous, IMO far funnier than anything Pratchett, or even Douglas Adams, has written. Some of the stories though seem to have this vague, meaningless feel though, which is why Leiber doesn't quite come into my top 10 authors, and also I wish that some of these tales had been full novels, not just short stories.

 

[Brys]

For some reason I can't edit my post at the moment.

Anyway, has seriously no-one else read anything by Fritz Leiber? He's one of the best authors in the genre, and you know there are problems when Gemmell is considered a king of sword and sorcery and Leiber isn't even heard of except by a tiny minority.

I just wondered - do you think that Leiber could have been a big influence on Pratchett? I mean, aside from the obvious things, like Bravd and the Weasel = Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser and Ankh-Morpok = Lankhmar. Some of the ideas, like the respective wizards they reported to (Sheelba and someone else) and some of the things they did (stealing a house) seemed really Pratchett - like, though I think Leiber is far more humorous than Pratchett.

 

[dwndrgn]

I haven't read as much because they are old and they aren't readily available these days. As I said before, I read what the library had and that is it. I continue to see if the local used book store has any but like Pratchett and Robinson, these are good 'read again' books so many people keep them for themselves.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Fritz Lieber is one of those auhtors who seems to have an undercurrent effect on a lot of fantasy work - the influence is not inherently obvious, but a lot of established writers cite him as a key inspiration.

Definitely someone I should read the novels of - I collected a series of adaptions in graphic novel format in the 90's and I guess that killed my interest in reading novels - after all, I know a lot of the stories - however, I'm sure there's a lot I'm missing and plan to read him once I can free up enough time to read at leisure.

 

[Leto]

I'm currently recollecting all the Lankhmar stories. It's a good read, but I wouldn't reccomend reading them all at once. Just savour them one bite after another, like your favorite TV show.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

These are my favourite sword and sorcery tales ever. Fafhrd and Mouser are such conceited, conniving, corrupt fellows, they're the very epitome of the lovable rogue stereotype. The interaction between the two friends is brilliant - the best buddy act in fantasy, I think. The world of Nehwon is a fantastic creation in its own right, but Lankmar itself is one of the greatest cities in fantasy, I think. It's almost a template for the cities of so many fantasy novels and RPGs, and a direct inspiration for Terry Pratchett's Ankh-Morpork.

The appeal of these stories lies in the thrilling adventures against exotic settings, the various strange places, people and creatures our heroes meet, the devious villains, corrupt rulers, wicked wizards and winsome wenches they contend with, the humour and sheer invention that runs through the tales and the appeal of the two main characters.

The Lankhmar tales cover a variety of short stories, novellas and longer pieces written over more than a decade, and as such the overall effect can be uneven. It's best to savour these stories one at a time, much as their original readers would have, with pauses in between. I'll go through my Leiber collection later this week and weigh in with especial favourites.

 

[fungi from Yuggoth]

Ah, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser! Leiber created some of the very best S&S creations ever with these two. So many fantasy writers, from M John Harrison to Terry Pratchet, owe a debt to Leiber, as do countless games, films, television series, and such. I cannot recommend them highly enough. The City of Lankhmar and the world of Nehwon are singularly unique creations, positively redefining the word 'exotic'. Smog-laden streets and curling alleys, inept thieves' guilds and adventuresome cutpurses, wings in the night swoop from mysterious towers to claim their female victims, strange shops appear from bare empty walls, eyeless and playful wizards seek the mask of Death, sentient castles and swamp houses on legs... And then of course there is the dirty duo themselves. No S&S writer, or fantasy writer period, has captured such witty and playful interaction between two fast and loyal friends. At their very best, the Swords tales attain an almost humming resonance between the two, playing both to perfection within the tale. Where Conan relied on brute strength and unwavering determination, where Elric relied on his sword and the help of dark gods, Fafhrd and the Mouser rely only on each other, a far more satisfying state of affairs.

As for my favorites, I've always loved the earlier series Swords Against Death. Though not as lyrically written as his later work, they contain such abounding imagination and excitement as to create an almost perfect fusion of the elements that produce great S&S. His later works, whilst enjoyable, sometimes played too much for humorous situations, almost becomming a parody of his earlier work.

 

[finvarre]

I've read only the first book in the series, that is, Swords and Devilitry. It's definitely not the kind of book I like,though I enjoyed the characters Fafhrd and Grey Mouser well enough. But then, there's too much adventure in here and too little psychology, worldbuilding or anything else. Besides, I don't especially like reading short stories or even novellas and this one was more a collection of 3 stories than a proper novel. Well, the stage of fables and faery tales is now definitely behind me - I think I would have appreciated the series far more had I read it earlier on.

Having said that, these series had an undeniable influence on fantasy writers worldwide. I'm especially conscious of the fact as the most popular Polish fantasy writer, Andrzej Sapkowski, always mentions Leiber as his favourite (or one of his favourites) writer. His stories about wiedzmin (Witchman, I'd translate it)Geralt and later his 5-book cycle undoubtedly bear witness to his words, as there are some echoes of the Lankhmar world and rogue heroes to be found in there as well.

 

[Brys]

It is, after all, a sword and sorcery novel (he coined that term), so it's hard to expect anything else. I think you're main problem is purely one of subgenre, as you say, because you clearly prefer epic fantasy or those with more worldbuilding. On the other hand, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser is probably the most influential story on all fantasy after Tolkien's Lord of the rings. If you're looking for a deep complex epic novel, you're not going to find it here - it may have a huge amount more depth than most modern sword and sorcery (and ironically, epic fantasy) authors in some aspects - Lankhmar is one of the most realistically created city I've read about, and Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are some of the best developed characters, and in depth and psychology, far surpass the usual Eddings, Feist, Jordan, Cook etc. I found the short story style a little jarring to start off with, but I've grown more used to it, as very few authors wrote anything longer than what we would call a novella before about 1970, with Tolkien being an exception - publishers didn't want them, and neither did readers. I'd agree though, that if some of the Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories had been full novels, they would have been better, but as it is, they're still excellent, and IMO by far the best choice in sword and sorcery (definitely better to read Leiber than Gemmell).

 

[finvarre]

Well, I know my opinion on the matter is a little biased, the more so because I've only read that one book, but I've stated as much in my previous post. I have read a fair amount of short stories as well, though I enjoy the epics more, but not always- LeGuin isn't epic at all and I like all of her novellas I've read (and nowadays my fav epics don't include 'the usual Eddings, Feist, Jordan; Cook isn't the usual at least in the Black Company series, but that's only IMO). And I know Lankhmar was very influential, also with a fair reason.

The only problem I have is that I don't quite understand what fits into the subgenre 'sword and sorcery'. I've seen novels of quite different kind than the Lankhmar series being put into that category, ie. the Morgaine Saga by CJ Cherryh, and this series has very little in common with lankhmar. I've even read somewhere that Harry Turtledove's alternative Bysanthium series, about the lost legion of Romans in Videssos fit into that category (!) although that surely must have been a mistake. So what are the obvious features that nowadays mark a novel as a S&S one?

 

[Brys]

An S&S novel is supposed to consist of a small group of characters, or a single character, whose adventures are followed throughout the novel. It is those characters that are the most important, rather than anything else. They often fight battles using cunning, magic or swordplay (or equivalent), but often for their own purposes, rather than as any quest or attempt to save teh world, though it may be that.

One decent bit from Wikipedia: "Sword and sorcery is more concerned with immediate physical threats and action than high fantasy, distinguishing the two genres."

I also agree on Cook, but I think his characterisation and worldbuilding aren't the strongest out there, though it's certainly a little way above Feist, Eddings and Jordan (though Feist's Empire series, cowritten with Janny Wurts, doesn't fall into the same category).

 

[finvarre]

Thanks Brys for the definition BTW does this mean Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone, Corum &others are S&S too?
I do agree about the Empire series - I liked them a lot, the intrigues, politics were superb and quite unlike anything else. These books were very different from the Midkemia books by Feist. I liked the first ones of those - The Magician and maybe 2 volumes more, but eventually I grew bored, he should have created a new world many years ago. (though of course I understand there are many readers who still prefer Midkemia

And as for Lankhmar: perhaps I should give this series a second chance, if only to become more sure still of my preferences.

 

[Brys]

Generally, all of Moorcock's eternal champion series count as Sword and Sorcery, so yes, Elric, Corum etc are sword and sorcery. They also come into the movement New Wave because of the idea of the multiverse. You may find that you enjoy the latter stories more - as long as you aren't expecting epic fantasy, they're very enjoyable. I read them a few months ago, because someone said they were the best in the subgenre, but as I had only read Gemmell before, I didn't expect much, and they were very enjoyable as such. Also, some of the later stories are extremely humourous.

 

[finvarre]

Thanks, I've already read them Elric and Corum series, that is. I liked them well enough, they're an easy&enjoyable read. Personally, I prefer Gemmel to Moorcock, though, especially some of the Drenai/Nadir series. But they are not one character- oriented, and sometimes there are more points of view than that of just one group of people. However, he's written so many novels, many of them don't live up to the expectations.

 

[GOLLUM]

As we're talking Sword and Sorcery here I'd like to mention Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique tales. Generally Smith's works are very much location driven more than character driven as one might arguably see in S&S works like Howard's Conan series. Zothique is the last inhabited land on Earth with references to Arabic, Asian and African locales where only basic technology (bows and arrows etc..) is employed within a polytheistic society with very much an emphasis on decadence and the decay of society including the practice of necromancy and necrophilia. An all pervading inevitability of loss and ruin pervades the prose at least it did for me when I read a number of the collected tales, which needless to say doesn't make for a light read and YES the writing at times can be quite tiresome/repetitive but I still enjoyed it.

The other 2 main series/locales I've not read as extensively revolve around the lands of Averoigne (stories set in an historical france of the middle ages from memory with fairly pedestrian and stereotypical characters re: werewolves, haunted forests, witches etc...) and pre historic Hyperborean (a land and climate similar to modern day Greenland populated by a mismatch of sabre tooth tigers, dinosaurs, wizards, cutpurses etc.. and that uses prose described as "pompously moralistic in an attempt at ironic humour" For me perhaps the weakest of the three, these stories have also been associated with post-Lovecraft author's contributiuons to the Cthulhu Mythos although they're more unique than any Mythos clone).

I'd also like to make mention of Catherine L. Moore's Jirel of Joiry series primarily featuring sword-wielding heroine Jirel of dark ages Europe. Not greatly noted for her blinding intellect Jirel still manages to vanquish her monstrous opponents and to my knowledge is basically the precursor to the more modern day sword-wielding heroines in Red Sonja, Xena etc.. For me these S&S stories are close to a par with Howard's Conan tales and better in some cases. An enjoyable read.

Anyone else read these... and apologies for going slightly off topic albeit still keeping within the theme of Lieber and S&S.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

I've read the Zothique tales, but haven't yet read Moore's tales because I haven't found a copy.


Re: Moorcock. IMHO, the earlier Elric tales are not his strongest work, although I like them, and the Corum tales are nearly his weakest, most repetitive pot-boilers ever. Unlike Gemmel, however Moorcock has a very broad range, and has written many more extremely entertaining and worthwhile books, although many of them aren't strictly S&S, and some aren't even fantasy. His current series of books that revisit Elric, including The Dreamthief's Daughter, are among his finest books, and some of the best fantasy of recent times.

Sigh - I'm wandering away from Lankhmar too.

 

[GOLLUM]

I've read the Zothique tales, but haven't yet read Moore's tales because I haven't found a copy.

So did you find them OK?..

EDIT Morre's book is sadly not an easy one to get hold of, a copy I've had is over 30 years old.

Sigh - I'm wandering away from Lankhmar too..

YEH but at least we're sticking with S&S..

BTW I've also read the Lankhmar series but most of the main points I wanted to mention have already been brought up, so not much point in covering old ground really...

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

I've enjoyed nearly everything by Clark Ashton Smith that I've read. While his emphasis is more on atmosphere and style than on the tight, action-driven plotting practised by Robert Howard, I think that brings an interesting variety into the classic S&S mix. Since we're quite freely wandering now, I find it interesting that while Howard and to a lesser extent Smith have been reprinted over the years, Weird Tales' most prolific contributor, and a fan favourite at the time, Seabury Quin, is almost unheard of now.