Dune: Prophetic or Coincidental?

[Foxbat]

First, I apologise if this has been done before.

For me, Dune has always been analogous with our own Middle East. Replace Spice with Oil and it all falls into place. He who controls the Spice, controls the Universe. Where would we be without the black stuff?

Written in 1965, it’s probably fairer to equate the writing to the looming Oil crisis of the early seventies rather than now. But there are other factors. Take the Fremen for example; a people treated like aliens on their own world. Some have become city dwellers and are given the most menial of tasks. Their ways of life ridiculed (the Harkonnen trait for splashing water on to the floor) Their religion manipulated and abused (the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva) - All for the want of Spice. And deep in the desert, a resentment grows – it becomes a breeding ground for fighters.

I look to the troubles in our own Middle East and cannot help but draw parallels.

This, for me, is the true strength of Science Fiction (Science Fantasy etc…..call it what you will). It gives us the chance to use the written word like a laboratory – where we can create worlds in which we can test and speculate on our technological and moral advancement.

I don’t think there’s any doubt that in later volumes, Frank Herbert deliberately drew parallels but I sometimes wonder if that was his original intent – and if it was then the man is a true genius in my eyes.

So what do you think? Prophetic or Coincidental?

 

[Brys]

I think there are similarities - I think Frank Herbert probably wanted to draw some parallels between spice and oil, but then I don't think Dune was intended as a very direct allegory for our own world. There is a lot more complexity to it as well. For example, who controls spice controls the world - well, that's true in Dune, but it isn't true for oil in our own world. Most oil is in the middle east, yet the most powerful countries are the Western countries with only limited oil. It is becoming more important, but as oil has only been important recently, and the scarcity of the resource means that it is unlikely to ever have the same kind of importance as spice in Dune. However, there is always a lot of conflict around those places with oil in the real world, as there was for spice in Arrakis. What you say makes a lot of sense, but I think while the Middle East certainly has some parallels, there is also more to Dune than just a simple allegory.

 

[Foxbat]

You make some fair points. Although I do tend to disagree slightly with the Middle East oil situation in the sense that,although the West has the most power, they all see the Middle East as a place where they must have influence (just as Spice is on Arrakis and all other powers - Harkonnen, Atreides etc -want influence there).

I agree that there is much more to Dune than just this but I think it's an important factor from which many ideas in the sequels sprouted

 

[Riddle of Loki]

yeah, i saw the parrallel to oil. but, thats not all. in the later books herbert refered to zen, judaism, of course christianity all comming from a single source - sufism. he also carried an interest in evolution, ecology and the stuff on fighting and the martial arts held validity too.

put the story in another framework - and the relationships and movements of the mind become much more than a mere strong and complex story. the movement of the mind in a certain order can yeild an insight into the proper structure needed to apprehend - 'a different way of thinking'.

consider the workings of the characters and territory in the story to mirror the workings within a human mind.

harkonens - sensation, addiction to lower impulses - prompted by hate, greed, and attempting to sate the infinite demands the flesh will put on your actions in the extreme. sensationalism and the flesh - adrenaline addiction and drug addiction. seeking to satisfy baser impulses - uses pleasure and fear for motivators and representation of wealth.

imperil house corrono - beleifs that predominate (at the sacrifice of truth) that can get perverted when the 'answers' all won long ago merely require enforcement by will to continue their domination over the mind. easily corrupted by the powerful forces at the call of house harkonnen. fear. seeking mere stability.

sardarkar - the mechinism by which 'work and movement' get accomplished. the troops. remember they are fanatics and gain great reward for accomplishment - the corrono consist of a house of established beleifs once based on an understanding of truth, but now have sunk into dogma and use will to impose their beleifs upon the workings of the mind at any cost - even if this means denying truth.

atreties - truth and honor. the real desire for such within a person.

the old duke - pride and hubris

the duke - willpower driven for truth and honor at any cost

jessica - love
consider the perverted logic of the mentat that the harkonens had. piter would use hate based on perverted logics created by the workings of the sensationnal faculties of the body-harkonen. and wanted to 'get or destroy' his object of desire.

paul - ones true potental. he asks alot of questions and acts on truth. other names - desert mouse (clever and able toi hide and survive in the desert) and usel - the base of the pillar.

fremen - a doctrine/religion of truth - sometimes equated with islam. a group of people who live and breathe the truth and see 'life' in a great desert and survive by this. they adhere to a dream - and as troops do work to transform the whole of the 'mind' to obtain their dream. the doctrine and survival in the desert keep them 'fee-men'. free from imperial influence.

mentat - the function of the mathematical, linguistic, symbolism faculties of the mind. logic, long term planning and how one may use it to its highest function detailed later in the series and how it may fall short and even into corruption by sensation and beleif.

benegesserit - the intuitive faculties of the 'hidden' or receptive mind. your right hemiphere of the brain. the right hemiphere often gets related to 'female' in anceint alchemy - the resivor for artistic and profound abilities of intuition and awareness. also, detailed is how to use this.

duncan idaho - the heroic approach to living. detailed to great length later on in the series for its good-points and for its great folly and limitations and various formats of interaction with other faculties.

the spice - is life - true experience of life - the effects are detailed in a profound manner in the first book. on a whole, these forces 'fight' over the experience and expression of 'life'. remember the atreties would actually 'sacrifice' a whole spice collector to save men. this indicates the length an atraties could go to exercise such disciupline in order to increase their vital pool of 'fighting/working' men and increase loyalty.

the rest gets easier to figure out if you read it and put your mind to it.

hard ground/ soft ground. repetition (obsessional personalities and the apllication of rythm) the worms will bring outright destruction to an individual, his ability to 'live' life, and his dreams.

this happens to those who search for the 'spice' and cannot get out when the worms come. this refers in general to obsessions and specifically to the irresponsible application of so-called spiritual exercises. we all know people who repeat one thing over and over again to recapture a 'feeling' and become 'robotized' by it and easily 'programmed' conmtrolled by 'dogmas' that stifle imagination and creativity. like taking up dervish dancing without knowing that it was designed for a specific time and place as a tool to free the mind of a type of people in central asia who were prone to expressionlesness and very controlled additudes about the movements they would exhibit. the dance was for the 'watchers' at this time. - now you get 'kids' attempting to apply this 'mystical' dancing 'to ?' and some become obsessed by it. they way they apply the exercise serves no function beyond the superficial and when repeated actualy 'limits' and can deaden progress. the worm may eventualy come and 'sweep' away the person 'caught in the desert' and further attempts to realize one potential dead forever.

harkonens get swept away by worms, everyone does - only fremen and paul learn to 'ride the worm'.

take care - forgive me for the long write-up...

 

[Riddle of Loki]

sorry, time expired for my re-editing - this one has some coorections to the first addition.

i would tend toward prophetic

yeah, i saw the parrallel to oil. but, thats not all. in the later books herbert refered to zen, judaism, of course christianity all comming from a single source - sufism. he also carried an interest in evolution, ecology and the stuff on fighting and the martial arts held validity too.

put the story in another framework - and the relationships and movements of the mind become much more than a mere strong and complex story. the movement of the mind in a certain order can yeild an insight into the proper structure needed to apprehend - 'a different way of thinking'.

consider the workings of the characters and territory in the story to mirror the workings within a human mind.

harkonens - sensation, addiction to lower impulses - prompted by hate, greed, and attempting to sate the infinite demands the flesh will put on your actions in the extreme. sensationalism and the flesh - adrenaline addiction and drug addiction. seeking to satisfy baser impulses - uses pleasure and fear for motivators and representation of wealth.

imperil house corrono - beleifs that predominate (at the sacrifice of truth) that can get perverted when the 'answers' all won long ago merely require enforcement by will to continue their domination over the mind. easily corrupted by the powerful forces at the call of house harkonnen. fear. seeking mere stability.

sardarkar - the mechinism by which 'work and movement' get accomplished. the troops. remember they are fanatics and gain great reward for accomplishment - the corrono consist of a house of established beleifs once based on an understanding of truth, but now have sunk into dogma and use will to impose their beleifs upon the workings of the mind at any cost - even if this means denying truth.

atreties - truth and honor. the real desire for such within a person.

the old duke - pride and hubris

the duke - willpower driven for truth and honor at any cost

jessica - love
consider the perverted logic of the mentat that the harkonens had. piter would use hate based on perverted logics created by the workings of the sensationnal faculties of the body-harkonen. and wanted to 'get or destroy' his object of desire.

paul - ones true potental. he asks alot of questions and acts on truth. other names - desert mouse (clever and able toi hide and survive in the desert) and usel - the base of the pillar.

fremen - a doctrine/religion of truth - sometimes equated with islam. a group of people who live and breathe the truth and see 'life' in a great desert and survive by this. they adhere to a dream - and as troops do work to transform the whole of the 'mind' to obtain their dream. the doctrine and survival in the desert keep them 'fee-men'. free from imperial influence. they refer to a system of activities that promote success in the desert.

mentat - the function of the mathematical, linguistic, symbolism faculties of the mind. logic, long term planning and how one may use it to its highest function detailed later in the series and how it may fall short and even into corruption by sensation and beleif.

guilders - unbalanced use of mathematics and theory. allows one to acheive 'movement' beyond limitations and they make 'projections' that approach that of 'precognition' thriough calculation. unbalance like 'nerds' who neglect the body (ugly and malformed) and deny the implications of their calculations. also, later in the series the use of computers negate the monoploy of such people on the tranfer of ideas. in the mid 60's - 70's mainframe computers were making great advances in application and power.

IX - western technological socioty.

thurfer hawat mentat - posoned by the harkonens. controled by the emperor but still loyal to the atraties (truth) when the emperor (false dogmatic beleif) demands logic 'work' when carried to the limit and logic dies - paul survives to pit himself (potential) against his counterpart fayd ratha (destructive, self-centered urges and self-negating potential)

benegesserit - the intuitive faculties of the 'hidden' or receptive mind. your right hemiphere of the brain. the right hemiphere often gets related to 'female' in anceint alchemy - the resivor for artistic and profound abilities of intuition and awareness. also, detailed is how to use this.

duncan idaho - the heroic approach to living. detailed to great length later on in the series for its good-points and for its great folly and limitations and various formats of interaction with other faculties.

pranna-bindu : is real and works - found in yogic traditions also, with sufic underpinnings and the same excesses and abuses carried by most religions.

the spice - is life - true experience of life - the effects are detailed in a profound manner in the first book. on a whole, these forces 'fight' over the experience and expression of 'life'. remember the atreties would actually 'sacrifice' a whole spice collector to save men. this indicates the length an atraties could go to exercise such disciupline in order to increase their vital pool of 'fighting/working' men and increase loyalty.

the rest gets easier to figure out if you read it and put your mind to it.

hard ground/ soft ground. repetition (obsessional personalities and the apllication of rythm) the worms will bring outright destruction to an individuala true potential if not careful, his ability to 'live' life, and his dreams.

this happens to those who search for the 'spice' and cannot get out when the worms come. this refers in general to obsessions and specifically to the irresponsible application of so-called spiritual exercises. we all know people who repeat one thing over and over again to recapture a 'feeling' and become 'robotized' by it and easily 'programmed' conmtrolled by 'dogmas' that stifle imagination and creativity. like taking up dervish dancing without knowing that it was designed for a specific time and place as a tool to free the mind of a type of people in central asia who were prone to expressionlesness and very controlled additudes about the movements they would exhibit. the dance was for the 'watchers' at this time. - now you get 'kids' attempting to apply this 'mystical' dancing 'to ?' and some become obsessed by it. they way they apply the exercise serves no function beyond the superficial and when repeated actualy 'limits' and can deaden progress. the worm may eventualy come and 'sweep' away the person 'caught in the desert' and further attempts to realize one potential dead forever.

harkonens get swept away by worms, everyone does - only fremen and paul learn to 'ride the worm'.

most education limits and does not serve the function of expanding the mind and allowing for a true realization of ones potential. the education received in even your most advanced universities tends only to contract the mind of possibilities and 'fit' a person for a role in socioty. most roles in socioty serve the tastes of that socioty. the concerns tend toward entertainment and trivial repetition. the 'payoff' is a realization of the main concerns of the vast majority - increasing nesting size and quality, breeding and placement in some heirarchy. even for the highest educated - very little free-thought actualy ever comes into existance beyond thses concerns.

take care - forgive me for the long write-up...

 

[Foxbat]

Interesting. I never really thought of it in that manner.
Much to ponder over

 

[Riddle of Loki]

thing i ponder over is the terrible typos and stuff - i could take more care myself - i still find it difficult to find my way around a keyboard and computer - if you ponder over my errors, really - forgive me.

they blow my mind to

as for the rest it ain't really a big deal unless you see something worthwhile.

the parrelels to the red-sea and the oil crisis in the 70's carries the most obvious implications.

as for the rest - its out there (some would say - really out there) but, all outside veiws give only a fragmented perspective of the situation. the so-called illuminati (not cult groups like the masons - but the ones who founded the masons initialy for sensitive work and then 'went beyond' them and left the cultist types with their 'club-house' atmosphere') ect...anyway - supposedly there exist an unbroken stream of knowledge somewhere and this 'grain of truth' can be found at some time and some place in every worthwhile human endeavor.

though most of what you see in every human endeavor and institution
carry a vast majority of superficial practitioners who merely mimic truth and play on the weaknesses in others for profit/gain and out of misunderstanding and misapplication. who still hold on so very tightly to primitive impulses the species on a whole flounders in our inability to move beyond them.

craftmen.farmers.knights. martialarts.writting.engineering.science.art.
and yes the dreaded political work of so and so...which usualy makes for event changes of a profound sort and hint often at the worst possible conspracy to those who fear such organization of 'working affairs' of a people who see and do more.

this is my thrd and last post (tek - fourth) and i will write no more. i am horrible at writting anyway so all the better - take care.

 

[Marvolo]

First, I apologise if this has been done before.

For me, Dune has always been analogous with our own Middle East. Replace Spice with Oil and it all falls into place. He who controls the Spice, controls the Universe. Where would we be without the black stuff?

Written in 1965, it’s probably fairer to equate the writing to the looming Oil crisis of the early seventies rather than now. But there are other factors. Take the Fremen for example; a people treated like aliens on their own world. Some have become city dwellers and are given the most menial of tasks. Their ways of life ridiculed (the Harkonnen trait for splashing water on to the floor) Their religion manipulated and abused (the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva) - All for the want of Spice. And deep in the desert, a resentment grows – it becomes a breeding ground for fighters.

I look to the troubles in our own Middle East and cannot help but draw parallels.

This, for me, is the true strength of Science Fiction (Science Fantasy etc…..call it what you will). It gives us the chance to use the written word like a laboratory – where we can create worlds in which we can test and speculate on our technological and moral advancement.

I don’t think there’s any doubt that in later volumes, Frank Herbert deliberately drew parallels but I sometimes wonder if that was his original intent – and if it was then the man is a true genius in my eyes.

So what do you think? Prophetic or Coincidental?

No, I don't think so. Frank stated very simply that he wanted to hypothesize the effects of an awareness drug on a universal economy and that his second focus of the novel was the ecology aspect.

Any parallels are probably subconscious on his part, as those were his two main goals in writing the novel.

Kicking book by the way, I loved it.

 

[Sparafucile]

Riddle of Loki thank you for not only pointing out The Spice/OIl analogy But also Refrencing the Freman/Islam.... For an expansion on this I State ... not only did FH give us The Freeman (and the Sardukar) he Also told us the means of overcoming them..

Paul Attredies says..And I don't quote "I will make saluca secondas a paradise" Stating, I think, that by Making conditions less harsh the enemy will not be as strong.

This is futher seen in God Emporor who turned the Freman into Priests who practiced the manners but never lived the life...

 

[sarakoth]

Another funny thing is that the Fremen are the religious descendents of present day Muslims. They believe in the religion of Budislam which is derived from Buddhism and Islam. They also live in a great desert land with few resources except for melange.