Live or die ?

[Ender]

Would like to ask...

Do you prefer a character to live like Jaime (sword hand off) or Bran (no legs) and "suffer" their pain.

or do you prefer them to die with honor (let's say like Renly and Robb)

 

[Duff_Omathum]

Some characters I like (because they suffer):

1. Barristan the Bold - Why? Because he's old, discarded, and outdated but still tough!
2. The Hound - Why? Because he's a burnt child under all that meaness
3. Jon - Why? Because of all the characters he is the one who knows his flaws the most.

 

[Ender]

Nice, but...a bit off topic don't you think?

 

[Boaz]

I think Duff likes the sufferers, but he's more interested in their psychological suffering than physical. All of his listed characters has suddenly found himself without a home, family, and friends... they are looking for meaning in life and their places in the world.

Of the aforementioned characters, Barristan, Sandor and Jaime all intrigue me, but Jon and Bran bore me to tears. Neither is old enough to be even mildly interesting or to have opinions and desires that remotely resonate with mine.

By the way I prefer the sufferers over the stupid, ie Robb, Renly, Rodrik, Robert, and Ned. Tyrion, Varys, Jaime, Arya, Sam, Jorah, and Dolorous Edd are my favorite sufferers.

 

[Summer]

Why do you think Jon is a sufferer? OK, he is a *******,he doesn't know his mother. But his life was good, he has a loving father,brothers and sisters. He lived better than Gendry for example.

 

[Ender]

Agreed.
There's many people suffering more than him.
I mean, Sansa saw Ser Ilyn cutting Ned's head.Quite hard don't you think?

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Why do you think Jon is a sufferer? OK, he is a *******,he doesn't know his mother. But his life was good, he has a loving father,brothers and sisters. He lived better than Gendry for example.

I'd say Jon is a sufferer of sorts. Sure, he had a loving family, but for all he knows they're all dead. Worse, they've all been murdered in gruesome ways, and there's absolutely nothing he can do about it. He's pledged to protect a realm full of people who have done his family much wrong. That pledge also forced him to kill one of his brothers on the NW, and lost him the only woman he would ever love.

In answer to Ender's question, I'd say it's a toss-up for me. Bran and Jaime's physical suffering are the equivalent to a lot of the mental and emotional suffering that is endured by other characters. They just happened to each lose that which was most important to them, like many others. As for Robb and Renly dying with honor, I'd say that goes for Robb, but Renly was kind of a slime, in my opinion- all pomp and circumstance and no substance.

 

[red_temple]

I'd even go on to say that Jon suffered a bit in his family life. Sure, Ned and the other kids treated him nice, but he was always an outcast. And Catelyn was downright spiteful towards him - even going as far as telling him that she wished he was the one that got thrown out the window instead of Bran. Ouch. Not good to hear stuff like that from your supposed mother-figure.

 

[Boaz]

Sure Jon has not seen the hardships that Lommy, Gendry, and Arya have, but he was teased by being raised as a lordling. Remember the story of Tantalus in Greek mythology? His name became synonymous with suffering by not being able to have what is right in front of you.

 

[Sword of the Morning]

Tyrion said it best to Jaime in A Game of Thornes, Death is so terribly final while life is full of possibilites.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

I'd even go on to say that Jon suffered a bit in his family life. Sure, Ned and the other kids treated him nice, but he was always an outcast. And Catelyn was downright spiteful towards him - even going as far as telling him that she wished he was the one that got thrown out the window instead of Bran. Ouch. Not good to hear stuff like that from your supposed mother-figure.

I have to say, that scene put me off Catelyn for life. It just sums up how she views Jon. I know, I know, she was grief stricken at the time, but her POV's have demonstrated that she harbours an abiding hatred of him. And she knows, i think, that it's unfair. She knows that he is blaimless, innocent. But she persists. because she can't hate his mother, not knowing whom to direct her anger at; and she WON'T hate Ned, because she loves him too much.

If it turns out Jon was not ned's son (as i believe it will (i'm in favour of the Rhaegar + lyana theory BTW)) I also think Ned will have been deeply hurt by her behaviour towards Jon, not just because he had hoped she would treat him like her own, but also because she had no faith in him. He could never tell her the truth about Jon's birth, but i think Ned had hoped, secretly, that she would have guessed some part of the truth after getting to know Ned. it's been mentioned so many times that Ned Stark's sense of honour was absolute. i believe that after living with him for years, Catelyn, had she not been blinded by hate, would have realised that betraying his wife (whether he loved the other woman or not) was simply something ned would never do. And i was struck by a passage in AGOT (i think) where Catelyn recalls the one time she asked about Jon's mother.

I'm parphrasing here, but ned says something like "He is my blood! I will hear no more questions about Jon! And now, my lady, i will hear how you learned that name (Ashara Dayne's)"

That's the only time (to my knowledge) that we hear Ned and Catelyn discussing Jon's birth, but i wonder at it. He does not say Jon's his son, but his blood. I think that could have been a veiled hint at the truth, an attempt by Ned to enlighten Catelyn, but in her anger she didn't take the hint. I think Ned was desperate to tell Catelyn the truth, for her to know he would never dishonour her, but that was the closest he could come to saying it.

 

[Boaz]

Hey, another Cat hater! Welcome DE. You might want to check out this thread, Is Catelyn dead? http://www.chronicles-network.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5743.

 

[red_temple]

I have to say, that scene put me off Catelyn for life.

I agree completely. After that scene, I have a hard time even tolerating Cat, let alone like her. It shows that Cat can be very similar to Cersei when she puts her mind to it. How can you *not* like Jon? Sure, he represents the supposed dishonor done to her, but he himself never did anything to deserve her wrath. I would think that Cat should be big enough a person to accept that, move on, and make the best of things with Jon.

 

[Boaz]

Red, I commend you for comparing Cat to Cersei.

How can you *not* like Jon?

I assume you are asking this question of Cat, but I feel that it seems to come to me also.

Switching from Tyrion's POV to Jon's POV is like switching from a Harley-Davidson to a Vespa... like switching from lobster bisque to fish broth... like switching from Chess to Tic-Tac-Toe... like switching from Ben & Jerry's to dry ice.

 

[red_temple]

I assume you are asking this question of Cat, but I feel that it seems to come to me also.

Switching from Tyrion's POV to Jon's POV is like switching from a Harley-Davidson to a Vespa... like switching from lobster bisque to fish broth... like switching from Chess to Tic-Tac-Toe... like switching from Ben & Jerry's to dry ice.

Yeah - I meant that from Cat's perspective. I can understand (for any number of reasons) why a reader may not like Jon. Personally, however, I kinda like Jon - you can make a really cool fog with dry ice!!!

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Red, I commend you for comparing Cat to Cersei.

I assume you are asking this question of Cat, but I feel that it seems to come to me also.

Switching from Tyrion's POV to Jon's POV is like switching from a Harley-Davidson to a Vespa... like switching from lobster bisque to fish broth... like switching from Chess to Tic-Tac-Toe... like switching from Ben & Jerry's to dry ice.

LOL! i have to say, Jon's my fave character. Dunno why, as i'll readily acknowledge that there are far more interesting, complex, and intriguing characters (I.E. most of them, that's what makes this series such a compelling read). i just love the whole concept of the night's Watch; this great botherhood sworn to the defence of the realm against a foe that noone believes even exists anymore, slowly dying as the quality and quantity of it's members drops and yet hanging on, refusing to abandon their sacred duty.

I think jon's POV's will be infinitely more interesting once the war with the other's kicks off, and when he starts interacting with the other main characters.

Oh, and ghost rocks, even less dialogue then hodor and yet my second fave character