Questions about fantasy books in general

[xghostsniperx]

After hearing so much on some other message boards about how much the fantasy genre lacks GOOD books, I'm a bit concerned. Fantasy is my favorite genre and I've JUST gotten the whole concept where it is actually possible to read for enjoyment (sorry, that concept is a bit weird to a high school student like me) and I don't want to run out of great books to read. So, I figured I'd start out the "lower tier" books that are good--but not great, and move my way up.

My friend who is a very avid reader, however, said that this is just stupid. He said I shouldn't waste my time with books that are simply passable, he said that I should read the best of the best.

Is this logical thinking, or am I overexaggerating the lack of great books in the fantasy genre?

By the way, here is a general idea of my "pyramid" or "tiers":

Lower tier:

Inheritence Trilogy (Eragon/Eldest)
Dragonlance series
Harry Potter series
Drizzt series
Sharanna series

Middle tier:

Sword of Truth series
Wheel of Time series
Lord of the Rings

Upper tier:

A Song of Ice and Fire series

Any info or responses would be appreciated.

 

[dwndrgn]

I say, forget what everyone else says, find a book you like, read it and move on from there.

Personally, I don't see a lack of good books in the fantasy genre. Just like everything else, there are good and bad ones and the only way you'll know for sure is to find out for yourself.

Because of the huge success of the LOTR movies and the HP phenomenon, fantasy has gotten a lot of press lately - all that does is shine the light brighter. And when you look at something under that strong of a light, you'll see all the cracks and crevices as well as the twinkling diamonds (and of course all the cockroaches scurrying for cover ).

Pick up one that sounds good to you and you'll find a logical direction to go from there. Usually, one book or one author will lead you to another...if you find after reading one that you don't have a logical direction, then you can come back here and check out the recommended books. If that doesn't work for you, join in on the book club and discover some new stuff there.

Welcome to the Chronicles Network, BTW

 

[GOLLUM]

I think dwndrgn provides some good advice here. I would say YES focus your energies more on books you deem to be worthwhile and not necessarily what everyone else thinks. In the end its what you like that counts, so if you're an Eddings fan then enjoy, if you're more into GRRM or Erikson then go for that style of work. Ultimately you yourself need to define what you like and in a way its good to sample various styles so that you at least are aware of what's out there before finding the particular style of book you enjoy.

Now I can't assume you're literary tastes for you but going on what you've defnied so far in your tier system, might I suggest that to GRRM (G. Martin) you may like to add authors like R Scott Bakker (Prince of nothing Trilogy), Steven Erikson (Malazan series)and whilst not quite at the same level close to it JV Jones current Sword Of Shadows trilogy and Paul Kearney's current book Mark Of Ran. Just some of the authors I'd add to a top tier plus most things written by Gene Wolfe, China Mieville and Zelazny's Chronicles Of Amber.

Plenty more IMO but as I say you know what you like better than anyone esle here.

Good luck!

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

The best thing is to try a bit of everything, identify what works for you most and follow on that strain of fantasy.


Having said that, I think a lot of corrent fantasy slips by simply because fans do not have a sense of the genre's history, of how certain things have already been done, and done better in some cases. If you have access to the Gollancz Fantasy Masterworks series, I urge you to read as many of these as you can, to gain a sense of the modern fantasy genre's rich heritage, and some of its finest moments and practitioners.

 

[sanityassassin]

good advice in previous posts all I can add is try something new from time to time it might not be to your taste but then again you might find a real gem and find a whole new direction to pursue. Scan second hand book shops for dog eared copies of books which shows they've been well read I've found a few writers that way and enjoyed new authors I'd never heard of before. Enjoy

 

[Princess Ivy]

i don't like any sort of hierachacal system, to judge one author better than others is a personal taste issue. i personally don't really find enough in the grrm, i know that a lot of people do like it, but as the others are saying, judge by the merrit of your own taste, rather than some concept written by other people.

 

[Brys]

First, check the recommendations thread. I've already posted my suggestions on SFFworld, but I'll post them here as well:

Upper Tier:
R Scott Bakker - Prince of Nothing series (The Darkness that Comes before, the Warrior Prophet)
Italo Calvino - Invisible Cities
Steven Erikson - Malazan Book of the Fallen
Raymond E Feist/Janny Wurts - Empire series
M John Harrison - Viriconium
JV Jones - Sword of Shadows (Cavern of Black Ice, Fortress of Grey Ice)
Franz Kafka -The Trial
Fritz Leiber - Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser
George RR Martin - A Song of Ice and Fire
China Mieville - New Crobuzon (Perdido Street Station, the Scar, Iron Council)
Michael Moorcock - Elric
Mervyn Peake - Gormenghast
Steph Swainston - the Year of Our War
Gene Wolfe - The Book of the New Sun
Roger Zelazny - the Chronicles of Amber

Middle Tier:
Glen Cook - the Black Company
Stephen Donaldson - Thomas Covenant
Raymond E Feist - Riftwar Saga, Serpentwar Saga, Conclave of Shadows
Neil Gaiman - Neverwhere
David Gemmell - Drenai novels
Robin Hobb - Farseer trilogy
Greg Keyes - Kingdom of Thorn and Bone
Stephen King - the Dark Tower


Lower Tier
David Eddings - Belgariad, Mallorean, Elenium
Raymond E Feist - all other Midkemia/Kelewan novels
Terry Pratchett - Discworld and Good Omens (with Neil Gaiman)

@Gollum - that's pretty scary, I said something really similar when he posted at SFFworld, except I put this long list up as well.

PS you confused me there for a while, I thought that suddenly loads of the posts for the thread had gone missing before realising that it was SFFworld you posted it on.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

I'd contest placing Pratchett in the lowest tier: the man's books are sharp, clever, witty and fun. Which is more than I can Steph Swainston's awkward good-in-parts debut. She needs to turn out at least two genuinely good novels before she rates such a high place. There are gaps in that highest tier, too: contemporary writers like Jeff VanderMeer, Jeffrey Ford and Kelly Link deserve to be up there as much if not more than the New Weird Hot Tot. And what of Jack Vance, whose Dying earth sequence is such landmark, to say nothing of his Lyonesse trilogy? ER Edisson? Hope Mirlees?

The great thing about your list is that it includes non-genre fantasists like Calvino and Kafka. I'd add Jorge Luis Borges, Gabriel Marquez and possibly selected works by John Banville.

But that's the fun thing about these lists isn't it? The chance to spar and debate a bit.

 

[rune]

I personally feel there are a lot of good authors writing in the fantasy genre. I also feel it's down to personal taste, some books i dont like othes love.

But for generally quality Ive found a few authors who've onl been writing in the genre the past few years are very good. In fact I make a point of looking for new authors as I find their approach can be refreshing

IMHO there is plenty of tallent around

 

[Auer]

To me there's no such thing as a bad book
Every book gives something and I don't very much listen to others' opinions about which books would be good to read, and which should be avoided. I read everything and if it's not quite to my taste, I won't rate it as bad - it just wasn't for me - but still I got something from it. An experience.
And I love books, all kinds...

 

[GOLLUM]

But that's the fun thing about these lists isn't it? The chance to spar and debate a bit.

True but they can also serve as a very useful way for members to become informed or aware of authors they've not known about previously. For example, thanks to several members here I now have Calvino and Harrison to add to my literary kitbag...

This is obvioulsy a subjective observation because it may display a literatary bias but I agree with Rune in that there's a decent number of very good to great authors out there today, just as I'm sure this was probably the case in previous eras. That would be an interesting exercise in itself actually to compare literary eras and their respective trends in speculative literature but I won't derail this thread, that's a topic for another day.....

Brys you've reminded me again of SFFworld, these days most of my time is spent on Chroincles, No .1 forum....

 

[Jay]

I particpated in a list like this earlier this year, and regretted, simply because it's impossible to take the time to put 100's of authors in tiers (hate to leave someone out), and the fact that even the best authors at times write some marginal work. Moorcock is a good example, he has written some of the best work I have ever read (maybe 20 of the best books I have ever read ), but has also written some average works as well.

it's also a subject that sometimes brekas down into posturing, but for the sake of discussion I will break it down into 5 tiers, in each tier (of course dozens more woull fit in each tier) that reflect my opinion/view. To not bog it down, I will not count works by authors deceased/retired - and just give names like Calvino, Kafka, Marquez, Pynchon, Kobe Abe, Angela Carter, Leiber, Dunsany, Wagner, Jorge Luis Borges, Lovecraft, Machen, Stevenson, Howard, Clark Smith, Hodgson, Morris, De Camp, Mervyn Peake, Edward Whittemore, Zelezny, Vance, Bulgakov, Delaney among several others a nod now and my admiration.


Top Tier:

Gene Wolfe
Michael Moorcock
M. John Harrison
Jeffrey Ford
Jeff VanderMeer
China Mieville
George R.R. Martin
Zoran Zivkovic
Lucius Shepard
Jonthan Carroll
Brooks Hansen
Ursula Leguin
John Gardner
John Lethem
Graham Joyce
JG Ballard
Neal Stephenson

Second Tier:

R. Scott Bakker
Steven Erikson
Jay Lake
Neil Gaiman
Terry Pratchett
John C. Wright
Jeffrey Thomas
Michael Cisco
Matthew Stover
Mary Gentle
Kelly Link
Paul di Filippo
Charles De Lint
Susanna Clarke
Paul Park
Sean Stewart
John M. Ford
Cathryyne M. Vallnete
Steve Aylett
Michael Chabon



Third Tier:


Patricia Mckillip (Riddlemaster is top notch however)
Greg Keyes
JV Jones
Steph Swainston
Phillip Pullman
Robin Hobb
Lynn Flewelling
Lois Mcmaster Bujold
Garth Nix
Stephen Donaldson
Tad Williams
Jacqueline Carey


Fourth Tier:

David Gemmell
RA Salvatore
Glenn Cook
Raymond Feist




Bottom Tier:

Terry Brooks
Robert Jordan
Terry Goodkind
Robert Newcomb
Christopher Paolini
David Eddings
Kevin J. Anderson
Curt Benjamin
Ed Greenwood
Weiss and Hickman
Piers Anthony

 

[Culhwch]

These kind of lists just plain deress me because it's a reminder of how little I've read... Will have to take some notes, look some folks up.

Jay - you're a little generous with Feist, aren't you? Mostly I'm just dismayed that Neil Gaiman keeps popping up in the second tier. I'd put him up top.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

I think the Sandman comics alone establish him as one of the best fabulists and genuine myth-makers of our times. I think I need to stop sounding so damn pompous.

 

[Culhwch]

On someone else, it wouldn't work, but I think you pull the pompousness off quite nicely, KO...

 

[Jay]

My perception of te hsecond tier is that it's where many excellent and superb authors are (in my perspective) - as Kniveouts said Sandman is incredibe, and I think the authors he is grouped with are also incredible.

I'm just not excited about Anansi Boys, as say, the next Mieville novel coming out. I don't think American Gods was as good as the average Joyce (Graham, not James, as certainly it's not in the same league as James) novel for instance (although I did enjoy it a lot).

Jay - you're a little generous with Feist, aren't you?

I just don't dislike him as much as I dislike the ones beneath him.

 

[Brys]

I'd contest placing Pratchett in the lowest tier: the man's books are sharp, clever, witty and fun. Which is more than I can Steph Swainston's awkward good-in-parts debut. She needs to turn out at least two genuinely good novels before she rates such a high place. There are gaps in that highest tier, too: contemporary writers like Jeff VanderMeer, Jeffrey Ford and Kelly Link deserve to be up there as much if not more than the New Weird Hot Tot. And what of Jack Vance, whose Dying earth sequence is such landmark, to say nothing of his Lyonesse trilogy? ER Edisson? Hope Mirlees?

The great thing about your list is that it includes non-genre fantasists like Calvino and Kafka. I'd add Jorge Luis Borges, Gabriel Marquez and possibly selected works by John Banville.

But that's the fun thing about these lists isn't it? The chance to spar and debate a bit.

I haven't read much by Pratchett, and those I have I haven't found particularly good (The Colour of Magic and Soul Music). None of those I put there I view as particularly bad - I didn't list them, because after all, this is a recommendation thread. Also, it's in an order of when to read them - Lowest tier easiest for fantasy newcomers, highest tier hardest - though of course quality is the main factor. I just found Pratchett's books not on a level with any of the middle ones. Those who you mention who aren't in the upper tier aren't there because I haven't read them - they're all on my to read list though. I enjoyed Steph Swainston's The Year of Our War a lot - I don't think it's quite on the same level as Erikson, Mieville, Peake, Bakker, Martin etc, but I didn't want to do more than 3 levels. It was well written (better written, I'd argue, than any other fantasy epic being written at the moment), and it was refreshing in it's portrayal of the main character who isn't likeable - even in the most ambiguous novels, the main characters are generally likeable - but Jant wasn't IMO.

Jay, you should read Feist's Empire series, which is IMO clearly his best work, which can actually compete with some of the good epic fantasies being written at the moment (Keyes and Jones - not as good as Martin, Erikson or Bakker though).

 

[Jay]

Jay, you should read Feist's Empire series, which is IMO clearly his best work, which can actually compete with some of the good epic fantasies being written at the moment (Keyes and Jones - not as good as Martin, Erikson or Bakker though).

I cannot. I made a vow to never read any Janny Wurts related work ever again.

 

[Brys]

That's a shame. I haven't read anything else by her though, so I can't say whether it's better or worse compared to what else she wrote.

 

[dwndrgn]

That's a shame. I haven't read anything else by her though, so I can't say whether it's better or worse compared to what else she wrote.

Much better, IMO.