Jon Arryn *POSSIBLE SPOILERS to newcomers*

[AryaUnderfoot]

Okay, so I've been carefully re-reading lately, and there's something that doesn't quite seem right to me.

Those of us who have read the books thoroughly know that the Lannisters were not responsible for Jon Arryn's death, as Ned and Catelyn had assumed. Lysa Arryn poisoned him because he had planned to foster her son with Tywin Lannister, and she did not want him to take her 'baby' away. (Obviously she had some remaining issues from when her father forced her to abort her pregnancy.)

Jon Arryn knew that Cersei's children were products of incest and infidelity with her twin brother. He had shared this information with Stannis. From what I have read about Arryn's character, he was the type who would bring this information to the surface. My question is this: why, then, would he arrange to place his only son in the lion's den (pun intended )? His only other heir was a nephew who had been killed, I believe.

Any thoughts?

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Good point! Sorry to shatter it


Jon Aryn didn't plan to foster his son with the lannisters, that was king roberts idea. He was going to foster him with stannis.


I got all worked up until i remembered that!

 

[red_temple]

Could this be a timing thing? Perhaps Jon Arryn promised to foster his son before he found out about Cersei's children? Or perhaps the decison to foster his son really came from King Robert, and Jon Arryn was forced to accept since he did not yet have any strong evidence of Cersei's misdoings?

 

[Boaz]

IMO, Lord Arryn made a public show of promising to foster Robert with Tywin. He probably promised to send him on in two years or so... when the boy was old enough. This was to allay Lannister concerns that Arryn did not trust them. Privately, Robert would be fostered to Stannis because Jon and Stannis were moving toward gaining evidence to do away with Cersei. But they needed irrefutable (sp?) evidence, support of the major houses, Viserys dead, and a fertile replacement queen to feel good about moving against Cersei and Jaime. There plan might have worked (if Varys or Littlefinger had not sold them out to Tywin) but for Lyssa not being privy to the secret. Ahhh, if only Jon and Lyssa had a better relationship... Jon would have lived, Cersei, Jaime and the kids would be dead and the story would have been over in two hundred pages.

 

[Duff_Omathum]

I think it all comes back to Littlefinger.

What are this man's motivations? Why did he want to start a civil war between the North and the South. He was the one who really ordered Jon's death and surely he left Ned all the clues that pointed to Cersei.

I suspect he is the one who puppetiered Robert's death for Cersei but left enough clues to make it look like the Lannisters were behind it too. Then he betrayed Eddard Stark, and then later backstabed Cersei again by running off with Sansa.

I don't think he is just chasing power, I suspect a more sinister motive.

He was very bitter over losing Cat to Brandon. Wanna bet he was the voice whispering to the King to burn/hang Brandon and his father?

The death of Jon was the first move by the Master IMO.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

He was very bitter over losing Cat to Brandon. Wanna bet he was the voice whispering to the King to burn/hang Brandon and his father?

Don't think he could have been. Lysa and catleyn married jon and Ned, then they both rode off to war. Can't recall the exact book/page, but i distinctly recall that (i'm paraphrasing here), "Jon arryn, on lysa's urgings, gave littlefinger a minor post at a customs station. within a short time (6 months, a year?) he had trippled it's revenues. Within 3 years Jon arryn had brought him to court, he had a place on the council and quickly set about replacing the customs officials, masters of coin etc. with his own men."

So he can't have been master of coin under Aery's.

The death of Jon was the first move by the Master IMO.

IMO Littlefinger is the most intriguing character in the series - we simply don't know what he's done or is doing, or, indeed, why. Which is why i hope we DON'T see any POV's from his perespective, at least until the last book or so.

 

[Duff_Omathum]

Damn! Another wild theory shot down!!!

 

[Sword of the Morning]

IMO, Lord Arryn made a public show of promising to foster Robert with Tywin. He probably promised to send him on in two years or so... when the boy was old enough. This was to allay Lannister concerns that Arryn did not trust them. Privately, Robert would be fostered to Stannis because Jon and Stannis were moving toward gaining evidence to do away with Cersei. But they needed irrefutable (sp?) evidence, support of the major houses, Viserys dead, and a fertile replacement queen to feel good about moving against Cersei and Jaime. There plan might have worked (if Varys or Littlefinger had not sold them out to Tywin) but for Lyssa not being privy to the secret. Ahhh, if only Jon and Lyssa had a better relationship... Jon would have lived, Cersei, Jaime and the kids would be dead and the story would have been over in two hundred pages.

I thought that fostering idea was from good old King Robert. With Jon dead, King Robert did not want little Robert to be with Lysa. So i think Robert the king not Jon who asked/ got Tywin to foster little Robert.

 

[Culhwch]

I thought Jon had arranged to foster Robert with Stannis, but on his death King Robert changed those plans to shuffle him onto the Lannisters.

What were Jon's motivations to send Robert to Stannis? Was he trying to secure Stannis's loyalty, or did he already have that? Perhaps together they had thought Robert and Shireen may have wed when old enough and produced an heir to the Baratheon throne. (Though who knows how that kid would have turned out...) The plan to marry Robert (the king, not the little snot) to Margaery was Renly's idea, no? Did he have anything to do with Jon and Stannis's little semi-coup? I don't think so, but can't exactly recall. So maybe Jon and Stannis were working towards a regency over Stannis' possible grandson, once Cersei and her brats were a foot shorter, and Robert had drunk himself into the grave...

 

[donel noye]

when lyssa was crying just before littlefinger gave her the short sharp shove out of the moon door littlefinger tried to consol her by saying "there is no cause for all of these tears" wich she replied "tears,tears,tears...no need for tears thats not what you said at kings landing.you told me to put the tears in jons wine, and i did." (p565 asos part 2).

so it is perfectly clear that littlefinger orcestrated this whole thing, from the very beginig.which means he is much more cunning than anyone originaly suspected. i also remember back in "thrones" that it was littlefinger who hinted to lord eddard to look into what jon arryn was reading before he died knowing full well that ned stark being an honorable man would see his friends murderer be brung to the kings justice. i think that as the story unravels further littlefinger will have turned out to have played a much bigger part "behind the scenes" as anyone could imagine.
as for the jon arryn knowing about cersie and jaime but still willing to foster his only son with them i agree with boaz that he made the agreement so as not to make the lanisters suspiciouse that he new there dirty big secret.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I think Jon's decision to foster Robert was more based on the fact he knew that his wife was harming the child's development. Maybe with Stannis he felt that his disciplinarian approach, combined with playing with children his own age (Edric Storm & Shireen) might do him some good. Once he died, King Robert probably agreed with the motivation but didn't like/trust his own brother at that point and so was probably talked round by Cersei, who could see the advantages of having the heir to the Eryie and future Warden of the West, raised and molded by Lannisters, possibly even to arranging a future marriage with a Lannister cousin or so.

Littlefinger wanted to set his own civil war agenda away though and killing the King's Hand was the perfect opportunity, especially as Lysa would have been even more deranged than normal as her child was going to be taken away from her "again"

I have a question though, why didn't Varys' little birds' do much to prevent some of the goings on in King's Landing? He seems to be good with foreign intelligence, but rubbish at stuff happening less than 100 yards from him?

 

[Ender]

I thought that fostering idea was from good old King Robert. With Jon dead, King Robert did not want little Robert to be with Lysa.

I have to agree with that.
By the way , any special or hidden meaning on "The seed is strong" ??

Or just a sentence...

 

[Dolorous Edd]

I have to agree with that.
By the way , any special or hidden meaning on "The seed is strong" ??

Or just a sentence...

He was asking for robert, he kept on asking. then the king came and he said "the seed is strong."

people didn't know which robert he meant, lysa believed he meant their son. But he was just trying to tell king Robert that his genes were predominant in all his children, proving that his supposidly trueborn offspring were not his. Nothing morre than that. I think. Could be more. Who knows. Oh, damnit! Now you've got me wondering...../me grumbles......

pretty sure there's nowt else to it.

 

[Boaz]

Agreed, although the Lannisters are hard to root out once they've been planted... and they spread like weeds.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Agreed, although the Lannisters are hard to root out once they've been planted... and they spread like weeds.

Like weeds??! They Are weeds!

weed ( wēd ) n. A plant considered undesirable (Cersei), unattractive (Tyrion), or troublesome (Jaime),
especially one growing where it is not wanted (All of them, everywhere, by everyone).

see? Perfect description of the lannisters.

Or this one.

weeds pose a serious threat and must be eradicated to prevent rapid spread. (Absolutely!)