Little finger or major player?

[The Blackfish]

Hi to all - new member here and thoroughly enjying reading all your posts

My apologies if I have chosen a topic to explore here that has already been thoroughly thrashed out, but I am really interested to know what all you theorisists think about Littlefinger. Obviously he IS a major player (just went for a semi-intelligent pun in the title) but how much so?

From memory, LF was born on a lonley outpost on the fingers (under the rule of the Eyrie) and later was a ward of Hoster Tully, where he fell into obsession over Catelyn. Is a behind the scenes player in Kings Landing until Halfway through "Blood and Gold", where he "kidnaps" Sansa and marries and then murders Lysa Arryn, thus gaining control of the Eyrie.

My question is: where does he go from here?

LF now has control of the whole military might of the vale of Arryn (but will they serve him?) but seems seriously emotionaly unstable regarding his obsession over Catelyn. Will he declare for a particular side? Will he make a play for the throne himself? (Although I doubt that. He is too much of a manipulator.) Will he force Sansa to marry him?

Is LF a brilliant schemer or unstable sychopath?

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Why can he not be both? He is clearly an uncommonly clever man, and his feelings towards cat blatantly snuck past imigration officials at the border to obsessed-land a long time ago (probably by hiding in a packing crate in the back of a lorry ).

LF is without doubt the most intriguing character of the series, one just never knows what to expect from him. As he is quoted saying, he's just as likely to make moves that have no benefit to his own ends, save to throw people off the scent. So how can we predict what he'll do? We can't. As to whether he'll force sansa to marry him though, he won't. 1) Force is not his style, he'll seduce her. and 2) In his own mind he "loved" cat, and he's transferred that love to sansa it seems. He won't wnat to take her by force, he "needs" her to love him in return. Personally, i think when she leaves him eventually (after finding out about his hand in her fathers death etc.) he'll go over the edge and we'll see a LF ruled by insane anger as oppsed to calculating cunning. Let's just hope he hasn't amassed enough power by then to cause too much damage to westeros and the fight against the others.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I don't have a problem with Littlefinger - he is devious and cunning - but so was pretty much everybody on King's Landing. The difference being, Littlefinger could land on his feet. I enjoy his resourcefulness.

 

[Florian the Fool]

(Spoilers)




By the end of SoS, iirc, Littlefinger was Lord of Harrenhall, had lordship over the Riverlands, had control of the Lady of Winterfell (he believed, not knowing that Bran and Rickon were still about), and control of the Lord of the Eerie (who I don't think will be about for long without his mother to look after him).

He has achieved more with a few honeyed words in the right ears than Robb Stark managed with the massed armies of the North and the Riverlands. And all because he's a spoilt little brat who never got over the pounding Brandon Stark gave him.

I think sociopath describes him better. He's not irrational in any way, but he cares nothing for the feelings of others, only what he can get for himself. He's an infuriating, loathsome little weasel, and a fantastic character.

Edited to add: Hi, Blackfish. Cool name, wish I'd thought of that.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

(Spoilers)I think sociopath describes him better. He's not irrational in any way, but he cares nothing for the feelings of others, only what he can get for himself. He's an infuriating, loathsome little weasel, and a fantastic character.

I agree, Florian. In fact, I think that his love for Catelyn may not have been a love at all. I think it was simply the beginning of his cravings for moving up the social ladder. He coveted what he, at his station, could not have. Since she was pretty much the one thing he was denied permanently, it must have rankled quite a bit. He managed to get his hands on everything else.

That being said, I do enjoy his character.

 

[reruth0627]

I disagree. I think the whole Brandon Stark kicking his butt thing made him into what he became. He made up his mind that nothing would ever be denied him again. Since it was made obvious that his physical prowess would never get him anywhere(being humiliated as he was), he decided that the "Game of Thrones" would be the way to go. Brains over brawn, you might say.

 

[The Blackfish]

I disagree. I think the whole Brandon Stark kicking his butt thing made him into what he became. He made up his mind that nothing would ever be denied him again. Since it was made obvious that his physical prowess would never get him anywhere(being humiliated as he was), he decided that the "Game of Thrones" would be the way to go. Brains over brawn, you might say.

I think LF had self esteem problems long before the Brandon Stark episode, but yes, his humiliation on this issue was probably one of the major contributing factors to his adult personality.

I agree that he is probably the one player (beside Varys) who actually properly understands the nature of the "game" that is being played out in Westeros, and is therefore able to plan for long term developements and possiblilities.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

I agree that he is probably the one player (beside Varys) who actually properly understands the nature of the "game" that is being played out in Westeros, and is therefore able to plan for long term developements and possiblilities.

Actually, i think completly the opposite. Whilst i'm 80% + sure that Vary's is aware of the others threat, i think LF is either completly oblivious to the looming presence of the others, the prophecy of the prince, dannys dragons etc. Or simply does not believe in them. I think LF will continue playing his own devious game, with an eye to dominating the whole of westeros, even when others start to take note of the bigger picture. His refusal to believe will have near catastrophic consequences IMO, as he continues striking out at his "foes" and further damaging their chances to repel the others. I can easily see littlefinger holed up in the vale with only a few "loyal" retainers left at his side, driven insane by sansa leaving him, and being besieged by the others, and him refusing to believe in them even when they finally break down the doors.

 

[Florian the Fool]

I think I would prefer Littlefinger to meet his end at the hands of Zombie Catelyn. There's a rather delicious irony there.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

I think I would prefer Littlefinger to meet his end at the hands of Zombie Catelyn. There's a rather delicious irony there.

FS. Bloody forum keeps freezing up when i try and post a lengthy reply

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I think I would prefer Littlefinger to meet his end at the hands of Zombie Catelyn. There's a rather delicious irony there.

Oooh, that would be nice.
Hm, that just made me think of some of the similarities between the Late Walder Frey and Littlefinger- both are devious, disinclined to pledge themselves wholeheartedly to a person or cause, and both are certainly greedy for land and power. Maybe it's a good thing that Littlefinger hasn't married before Lysa- otherwise he too would have children to peddle in exchange for expanding his 'kingdom.'

 

[Gazz]

I'm very interested to see what happens to Sansa in his company too. Will it be the making or breaking of her, for instance, and will she finally just BREAK when she realises that all the lies, all the crap she's been through, and indirectly all the suffering too is basically everything Littlefinger stands for?

Or will she just give in the to lying and deceit and become Cersei V2.0, albeit with Northern Stark colours?

As far as Littlefinger goes, i just can't see him surviving too much longer in the books - the knights of the Vale will know that treachery is afoot, and Marillion certainly knows enough now to put a dent in his plans with Sansa, however long the bard lives.

I can see the hound or Jaime making one last attempt at chivalry too, and becoming the thing that George R.R. Martin spent the first few books telling us they weren't. Knights in deed as well as words. As you say though, Littlefingers achieved more than Robb, and he won't go easily, thats for sure.

 

[Shoegaze99]

Blackfish, spoiler tags would be nice. While I've read the stuff you reference, and likely most people reading this thread have, there may well be folks who have only, say, read the first two books. You give away some major plotpoints that are not revealed until the very end of A Storm of Swords, and I'd hate to see such major events spoiled for someone excited to talk about the series after having only read the first book or two.

Just a friendly suggestion.

 

[Florian the Fool]

As I reach the closing sections of SoS and read the chapter of Littlefinger arriving back at his homestead, a question occurs to me.

The description of Littlefinger's home is pretty unappetizing. This is not a house of either means or prestige, it would seem. So how did it's heir come to be fostered at Riverrun?

If I understand GRRM's world correctly, there are two reasons for fostering with another family

One, as a hostage against good behaviour (eg Theon Greyjoy). I have trouble with the thought that House Baelish rose up in rebellion, as there seem to be more sheep than people.

Two, to forge links between two familys and bestow honour on the smaller house (eg Walder Frey's wish for Big and Little Walder to be fostered at Winterfell). There must be a great many houses more deserving of the honour of sending the heir to Riverrun to be fostered by Lord Tully than Littlefinger's.

So how did he come to be there? Was this ever explained? Can anyone refresh my memory?

 

[Koopa]

no it wasnt explained, do some believe rather farfetched that the targaryens got something to do with that.

Also his name basically says it all, he has got his little finger in everything.

 

[Werthead]

As I understand it, Petyr Baelish's father performed some task for Lord Arryn, and Lord Arryn recommended that Petyr be warded somewhere prestigious like Riverrun as a reward. Littlefinger later retained Jon Arryn's favour by working out a new customs system for Gulltown that increased the Arryn coffers quite favourably, and then when Robert took the throne Jon recommended having Littlefinger as Master of Coin. Hence his rise to power and prominence.

 

[Queen Cersei]

His worked to get high and prosperous in the game of thrones, and I believe he has earnt it!!!! Petyr for king!!!!

 

[Koopa]

lolz, he has earned to die pinfully thats true and since kings are dieng fast these days ... yes petyr for king for lets say a full day

 

[Queen Cersei]

Dammit, no!!!! He will rule with Cersei as his queen and Hodor as Lord Commander of his Kingsguard!!!! What a wondrous day for all

 

[Koopa]

Indeed, then Bran slips hodor skin on, and kills both cersei and Petyr by making them fly

Is it just me or does that seem very suiting