Loved Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, will i like Raymond E Feist's work?

[schmintan]

Im almost finished Donaldsons "the chronicles of thomas covenant", bar the latest book 1 of the final chronicles, but i have to wait for xmas for that. my bro has a heap of books by Raymond E Feist. the only title i remember is " a darkness at sethannon". are they good books, are they gritty, or a bit surreal, quite original or do they borrow heavily from other stories, and in general are they worth reading? I loved the Thomas Covenanta Series and i feel something else will have to be unbelieveably great for me to like it at all, compared to the Thomas Covenant books.

if anyone can recommend anything they think i might like, in the same non traditional fantasy style as the Thomas Covenant Series please let me know. i have to have something to read, but i dont want to end up reading some generic tripe about a magician in the middle ages or barbarians and what not.thanks

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Well, I've never read Thomas Covenant so I'm obviously going to be precious little help to you, but I wouldn't categorise Fiest's work as gritty.

Very good character work and plot though, although it does borrow heavily from various sources (it has Elves, Dwarves & Goblins f'instance) but it gives it enough variation to feel original.

Nothing at all like Thomas Covenant from what I've heard, though.
And hello btw, don't think I've bumped into you before

 

[YOSSARIAN]

Feist was the first guy I read when I started to get into fantasy and I liked his stuff. As I got into other authors and went back to Feist I didn't appreciate his work as much, but he is still more enjoyable than a lot of fantasy writers. The Empire serires he wrote with Janny Wurts is my favorite of everything he has done. If I was familiar with the Covenant books, I could better help you. What are the Covenant books like?

 

[schmintan]

hello folks. On what are the Thomas Covenant Series like, well, they are a hugely intricate plotwork, where you can be lead to being sure whats going to happen, but being totally supprised. its very dark, in the way that its from the point of view of a leper who is the biggest pesimist ever, yet he,s an optimist also. the book is built on contradictions balancing themselves, good/evil, sane/mad... the story is never truly happy, always with good charachters being killed or taken. its very psycological also, centering on the dark thoughts and pasts of the main charachters, and how their past's affect their choices and well, thats a terrible description of the books, but im not a writer and no good at things like this. I would recommend them to anyone, they are my favourite series of books to date, and will be almost impossible to top.sorry for the crap description of the Covenant series

 

[YOSSARIAN]

Sounds interesting, despite your crap description . I've been looking for something new also-I'll check this out.

 

[GOLLUM]

Well I don't have much time to answer this question at the moment but to give you the quick reply as someone who has read everything by Donaldson and almost all of Feist's work that Donaldson's Covnenant series is fairly gritty and complex as you say whilst Feist is a lot more generic IMO and also a lot lighter. Personally if you want something akin to Donaldson I wouldn't go for Fesit, although he's fairly decent at being able to tell an engaging story. I'd recommend series such as:

Steven Erikson's Malazan series (my fav).
R Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy
JV Jones current Sowrd Of Shadows trilogy
Paul Kearney's Ship series and current book Mark Of Ran
George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire

Plenty more but this should get you started.

Bye for now...

 

[GOLLUM]

Let me also add to that list:

Gormenghast series - Mervyn Peake.
Perdido Station, The Scar and Iron Council - China Mieville, part of the New weird authors.
Book of the New Sun - Gene Wolfe in fact just about anything by Wolfe is worth investigating. Arguably America's greatest writer.
Invisible Cities - Italo Calvino. Not EPIC fantasy per se but highly original with breathtaking prose.
Viriconium Cycle - M John Harrison. A mix of Sci fi and fantasy story with some beuatiful prose.

I'm sure others will add more.....

 

[hedgeknight]

A friend gave me Lord Foul's Bane, the first book in the Thomas Covenant series, for Christmas back in 1982. And I've been a huge fan of Stephen R. Donaldson since. The Covenant series changed my way of viewing sci-fi/fantasy - the series is rich beyond description with intricate plot lines and characterization. I think the reason I love the series so much is because the first book made so angry that I was determined to read it all the way through. And after Lord Foul's Bane, I was hooked...permanently.

Another good Donaldson story is the Mordant's Need Duology featuring The Mirror of Her Dreams and A Man Rides Through. Different from Covenant but just as intriguing - was hooked from the first chapter.

As for Raymond E. Feist, I loved the Magician series (Magician: Apprentice and Adept, Silverthorn, and A Darkness at Sethanon). Not anywhere near the same genre as Donaldson, but still rich in characterization - very good suspenseful fantasy. My favorite line in the series - "Tremble and despair, for I...am...power!"

Gollum gave some great recommendations. To those, I add:
John Marco - Tyrants and Kings trilogy - The Jackal of Nar, The Grand Design (my favorite), and The Saints of the Sword.
Terry Goodkind - Wizard's First Rule, Stone of Tears, Temple of the Winds, Blood of the Fold - this series spun way out of control for me and just bored me to tears later. This first four books, listed above, are the best IMO. I read Wizard's First Rule with my eyes bulged out and my mouth hanging open most of the time. One of the single greatest books I've read.
Roger Zelazny - Chronicles of Amber
And anything by David Gemmell - just a great author.

Hope that helps - Peace!
-g-

 

[GOLLUM]

Well Hedgeknight you make some interesting recommendations and on the whole I've had to agree. Like you I discovered Donaldson in the early 80s and have been an ardent fan ever since. The Mordant's Need Duology is good but Covenant stands in a class of its own.

John Marco's orginal triilogy I discovered when it first came out and I quite enjoyed this. It's military fantasy and reasonably hard-edged with some nice plot twists. In some ways an underrated author like Paul Kearney. Whilst we're on the topic of military fantasy I'll also throw in one of the modern orginators in Glen Cook. His Black Company series was in part the inspiration for Erikson's malazan series.

I aslo agree the Amber Chronicles by Zelazny is a great work, a classic in fact.

However I read Goodkind's Wizard's Rule and found it one of the least inspiring books I've ever read. I wouldn't go anywhere near this author or his works but that's just my opinion...

Gemmel is the only one on that list I've not read but I keep on hearing good things about him, so I'll try to give him a try in 2006...

 

[hedgeknight]

However I read Goodkind's Wizard's Rule and found it one of the least inspiring books I've ever read. I wouldn't go anywhere near this author or his works but that's just my opinion...

Really? I loved it. But then that's what's so great about the genre - different strokes for different folks! I've read how some folks trash Terry Brooks, calling him a hack. David Eddings too. But, again, this genre is so diverse, that there is something for everyone's personal tastes.

I've heard so much about Erikson, that I'm gonna hunt for his first book of the Malazan series this weekend. Can always get one on eBay, but I'd rather find a good used one around town.

Peace and Good Reading!
-g-

 

[GOLLUM]

I've read how some folks trash Terry Brooks, calling him a hack. David Eddings too. But, again, this genre is so diverse, that there is something for everyone's personal tastes.

I've heard so much about Erikson, that I'm gonna hunt for his first book of the Malazan series this weekend. Can always get one on eBay, but I'd rather find a good used one around town.

Well I have probably less time for Eddings than I do for Goodkind but Brooks is another story. Yes his very generic and there's nothing particulalry original about his work but I enjoy the way he writes partly because it's in a very logical and constructed manner which is probably not unsuprising as he has a background as a lawyer. This is not to imply I don't like less rigid structures either but when I pick up a Brooks book I pretty much know what I'm getting. He's failry light on but I don't mind reading his stuff as a break form the heavier offerings around...

Now Erikson is a complete contrast. He's my favourite author but be warned it's certainly not an easy read, a pretty complex storyline in fact. If you like EPIC with a capital E you'll like this guy. Check out the Authors section on him of you've not already done so.

Let us know how you get on....

 

[Brys]

My advice - read the Empire series. Feist is far from the most gritty, realistic or original author out there. But his best is still quite good, and IMO superior to Covenant. If you're looking for a non-traditional fantasy, read any of:
Erikson, Martin, Bakker, Mieville, Peake, Harrison, Vandermeer, Swainston, Moorcock, Powers, Swanwick, Wolfe or Zelazny - to name a few.

If you're looking for some of the best traditional epic fantasy, go with Feist's Magician. If you're looking for something that is better written and more original, look for Daughter of the Empire, co-written with Janny Wurts. Feist has the unfortunate syndrome of writing progressively worse books. Other than Magician and the Empire series, there's not a lot of point in reading his novels.

To tell you the truth, I've always found the Covenant series over-rated. The central character, Thomas Covenant, is one of the best characters in fantasy. But the theme is overdone, and without a decent plot, good characterisation elsewhere or an original world, it really isn't as good as it could have been. Now, Feist has nothing like the same level as characterisation as Covenant, so moving from Covenant to Feist, completely different in styles, wouldn't be a great idea. Going to Martin would probably be the best decision - he has very realistic characters, but done in a more traditional fantasy style (ie medieval-England setting, that's about as far as the traditional part goes). You probably wouldn't like Erikson after reading Covenant - Erikson doesn't have the same depth of characterisation, or at least the same explicit depth of characterisation. He's one of my favourite authors in the genre, but a lot of people get put off because they're expecting a masterpiece, which is easy to read, and has the same kind of depth of characterisation for every character as Donaldson does for Covenant or Martin does for Tyrion, which with a cast this size is clearly impossible.

 

[GOLLUM]

Feist is far from the most gritty, realistic or original author out there. But his best is still quite good, and IMO superior to Covenant.

Yikes that's where we diverge in opinion old chap...

Still other than your comments on Covenant I agree with your other observations. When it's all said and done each to their own I suppose...

OH Hedgeknight you may also want to check out Greg Keyes Kingdom of Thorn and Bone quartet, along with Kate Elliott's Crown of Stars series, both decent reads on the EPIC scale.

 

[hedgeknight]

Yikes that's where we diverge in opinion old chap...

Still other than your comments on Covenant I agree with your other observations. When it's all said and done each to their own I suppose...

OH Hedgeknight you may also want to check out Greg Keyes Kingdom of Thorn and Bone quartet, along with Kate Elliott's Crown of Stars series, both decent reads on the EPIC scale.

I bet I've picked up Kate Elliott's series a dozen times while browsing the shelves, but never took it home. Thanks for the advice and on Greg Keyes - I'll be sure to check those out.

As for Donaldson and all his critics, White Gold Wielder is still one of the best books ever written.
-g-

 

[GOLLUM]

As for Donaldson and all his critics, White Gold Wielder is still one of the best books ever written.
-g-

True but I think Lord Foul's Bane might be my favourite of the series so far...

 

[Brys]

Yikes that's where we diverge in opinion old chap...

Still other than your comments on Covenant I agree with your other observations. When it's all said and done each to their own I suppose...

OH Hedgeknight you may also want to check out Greg Keyes Kingdom of Thorn and Bone quartet, along with Kate Elliott's Crown of Stars series, both decent reads on the EPIC scale.

Superior to the worst of the Covenant books, not superior to the best! (The One Tree - 2nd book of the 2nd chronicles - was really far too slow, but without the same quality of characterisation, worldbuilding, description etc that makes it work). It's also a preference of style - I prefer the intrigue and originality of worldbuilding found in the Empire series to Covenant's LotR type adventures in the Land. I found that Donaldson was truly excellent, one of the best writers I've seen, while he was writing in the real world. The problem was that he didn't seem able to transfer it properly to the Land. The Land was very archetypal, and yes, I know that was intentional, but I think it was drawn out a bit too much. Unlike most people who don't like the Covenant series, my favourite part of it is that Covenant is such a depressing character - it's just that nothing else around him in the Land seems worth paying any attention to. The problem of reading Erikson and Martin first (and having read Feist first, I didn't have high expectations for them).

As for Donaldson and all his critics, White Gold Wielder is still one of the best books ever written.

I haven't read that yet - the One Tree was really disappointing and put me off reading any more Donaldson. Is White Gold Wielder a big improvement then? I loved the Wounded Land, and found the others pretty good, but the One Tree was pretty much a waste of time IMO.

A pretty funny quote from an amazon review of the first chronicles of Thomas Covenant:

Other recommended "high fantasy" books: Magician by Raymond E. Feist, Mythago Wood series by Robert Holdstock, Gormenghast trilogy by Mervyn Peake and the Amber series by Zelazny.

I hadn't really considered those last two high fantasy - great series, but very little in common with the Covenant series.

I don't know, maybe I wasn't in the right mood, or I had too great expectations, but I'll take Feist, Guy Gavriel Kay, Eddings, especialy Eddings over Donaldson any day

Ok, I may not be Donaldson's greatest fan, but Eddings over Donaldson? Those two authors are on completely different levels.

 

[GOLLUM]

Superior to the worst of the Covenant books, not superior to the best! (The One Tree - 2nd book of the 2nd chronicles - was really far too slow, but without the same quality of characterisation, worldbuilding, description etc that makes it work). It's also a preference of style - I prefer the intrigue and originality of worldbuilding found in the Empire series to Covenant's LotR type adventures in the Land. I found that Donaldson was truly excellent, one of the best writers I've seen, while he was writing in the real world. The problem was that he didn't seem able to transfer it properly to the Land. The Land was very archetypal, and yes, I know that was intentional, but I think it was drawn out a bit too much.

Well OK if you're going to compare specific books in the series with the best of Feist in terms of worldbuilding you may have a point but I was assuming you'ld read the entire series like myself and was therefore judging more in an overall sense than with indivdual books. I'ld love to be able to say to you that book X is better than book Y etc.. but it's been a long time since I read the series (10 plus years) prior to reading the first book in the final Covenant quartet he's now writing, that it's difficult to remember exact details or make specifc comparisons b/w books. My assesment is more an overall one therefore when I say that the Covenant series is superior to anything I've read by Feist but you're probably right, it's more in terms of charaterization and prose I'm judging than the world building per se which isn't anything spectacular I agree. It's just that Covenant is such a strong character that it's almost as if the background of The Land is secondary to what Donladson is trying to achieve in his study of the human condition, a means to an end if you will. In other words it didn't matter a lot to me what the background setting was because the central character was so pivotal to the entire story. At least that's how I viewed it, which is why I make one of the few exceptions in terms of a lack of worlduilding because the characterization is so brilliant or at least was 20 years ago when I saw less of the sutff I see today in the fantasy Gerne by authors like Bakker et al...

That's an interesting point you make about Donaldson writing in the real world vs. The Land. For me it was excellent writing either way because the Covenant character is so brilliantly potrayed no matter what setting he's placed in IMO and that's what really makes the story..I also didn't find it that slow moving in The Land but then again I read the books some time back so maybe I've lost a little bit of perspective who knows?...

 

[GOLLUM]

I hadn't really considered those last two high fantasy - great series, but very little in common with the Covenant series.

Ok, I may not be Donaldson's greatest fan, but Eddings over Donaldson? Those two authors are on completely different levels.

Well funnily enough I've seen Amber classified as High Fantasy but Gormenghast? Sorry I'm not so sure about that one... I'm also with you on the Donaldson v. Eddings comment mate....

 

[Brys]

My problem with the Covenant series has always been that while Covenant is absolutely amazingly portrayed, the other characters aren't. I'm fine with the Land as a backdrop, but that's all it should be - Donaldson sometimes seems to focus too much on it, but his skills in characterising Covenant. Now I know the whole point is to always make you doubt whether the Land is real, so all the archetypes are intentional, but it does seem to be overdone. As for the Land vs the real world, I just feel that all the aspects of Donaldson's writing seem to improve while it is set in the real world - the characterisation is more realistic for other characters than Covenant, the prose is better, and it has a much darker tone.

If I'd just read Feist, Eddings, (dare I say it, Tolkien) then I think I would be much more positive towards the series. The problem though is that the kind of depth of characterisation of Covenant wasn't an exception - I'd already read A Song of Ice and Fire, for worldbuilding and originality, I'd read Erikson - both who managed to show excellence in pretty much all the important elements of novel writing, so focusing on just one, and while that is still amazing, just wasn't quite enough. I'll be reading more of the series when I get time, but it hasn't amazed me in the way it has for lots of others (at least partly because I've been spoilt by all the recent great authors).

 

[hedgeknight]

If I'd just read Feist, Eddings, (dare I say it, Tolkien) then I think I would be much more positive towards the series. The problem though is that the kind of depth of characterisation of Covenant wasn't an exception - I'd already read A Song of Ice and Fire, for worldbuilding and originality, I'd read Erikson - both who managed to show excellence in pretty much all the important elements of novel writing, so focusing on just one, and while that is still amazing, just wasn't quite enough. I'll be reading more of the series when I get time, but it hasn't amazed me in the way it has for lots of others (at least partly because I've been spoilt by all the recent great authors).

Yeah, but you started at the back end, brother! The Covenant series has been in print since the 80's - Martin's Song of Ice and Fire and Erikson Malazan series is relatively new. Had you read Covenant first, I imagine you might have a different opinion.
And regarding The One Tree - I liked it the least of the six books in the series; but White Gold Wielder is the cream of the crop! And worth plowing through the One Tree.
-g-