Ned Stark Question....

[JohnSnow]

Does anyone else feel that Ned Stark is still alive?

I apologize if this has been discussed somewhere back in the archives. I just can't help getting that feeling out of my head.

I just started re-reading GoT and was reminded that Lord Stark was barely recognizable at the time of his execution. Also it would be just like Tywin Lancaster to keep an Ace up his sleeve like this in case Robb, or the like of from the North, came down to overthrow King's Landing.

Considering his untimely death he may not have informed anyone else of his plans.

Any thoughts, I know it is a long shot....

js

 

[Boaz]

Tywin Lancaster. That's funny.

JS, I don't have any proof other than this.

Tywin could've had peace with the Yorks and Percys, err Starks and Tullys, at any time by producing Ned. Was it worth it setting the Riverlands aflame, letting Robb ravage Lannister lands having to give major concessions to the Tyrells, and most importantly letting Jaime stay a prisoner of murderously angry northmen? To return the Starks and Tullys to the King's Peace, to then more easily face down Renly and Stannis, and project a strong front to deter the Greyjoys from rebellion all Tywin had to do was pardon Ned and let him take the Black.

 

[JohnSnow]

Tywin Lancaster. That's funny.

JS, I don't have any proof other than this.

Tywin could've had peace with the Yorks and Percys, err Starks and Tullys, at any time by producing Ned. Was it worth it setting the Riverlands aflame, letting Robb ravage Lannister lands having to give major concessions to the Tyrells, and most importantly letting Jaime stay a prisoner of murderously angry northmen? To return the Starks and Tullys to the King's Peace, to then more easily face down Renly and Stannis, and project a strong front to deter the Greyjoys from rebellion all Tywin had to do was pardon Ned and let him take the Black.

D@mn!!!!Gotta love typos!!

I was thinking more along the lines of prior to the last straw being broken, produce ol Neddy as a last bargaining chip for his life. I am not 100% sure tywin would sacrifice life and limb for either his son or daughter. Also the only way to get his family in complete control of the seven kingdoms is to have things happen pretty much the way they worked out. Like I said, just thinking

 

[Raven]

As the saying goes: Ned's dead, baby.

To produce Ned at this point makes no sense plotwise, emotionally, or in the structure of the story. GRRM was not kidding around when he killed Ned. He is not going to produce a twist on that one. Ned is dead. Sure, he could be alive if the author wanted him to be, but so could Robb, or anyone else. And the converse is that there is no reason to think that GRRM wants or needs Ned to be alive. Quite the opposite: he needs him to stay dead.

On the other hand, this one comes up so often we have a saying for it, so you're far from alone.

 

[Boaz]

Shae: Whose sword is this?
Tyrion: It's Valyrian Steel, baby.
Shae: Whose Valyrian Steel is this?
Tyrion: It's Ned's.
Shae: Who's Ned?
Tyrion: Ned's dead, baby. Ned's dead.


Bronn: Now I want you to go into that bag and find my sword.
Marillion: Which one is it?
Bronn: It’s the one that says, “Bad Mother F-----.

 

[JohnSnow]

Shae: Whose sword is this?
Tyrion: It's Valyrian Steel, baby.
Shae: Whose Valyrian Steel is this?
Tyrion: It's Ned's.
Shae: Who's Ned?
Tyrion: Ned's dead, baby. Ned's dead.


Bronn: Now I want you to go into that bag and find my sword.
Marillion: Which one is it?
Bronn: It’s the one that says, “Bad Mother F-----.

Just freakin' classic!!!!

 

[Raven]

Exactly, Boaz! The second one is even better.

 

[Boaz]

Mance: It's the little differences... and you know what they call a... a... a Quarter Pounder with cheese in King's Landing?
Tormund: They don't call it a Quarter Pounder with cheese?
Mance: No man, they got the metric system. They wouldn't know what the **** a Quarter Pounder is.
Tormund: Then what do they call it?
Mance: They call it a "Royale" with cheese.
Tormund: A "Royale" with cheese. What do they call a Big Mac?
Mance: Well, a Big Mac's a Big Mac, but they call it "le Big-Mac".
Tormund: "Le Big-Mac". Ha ha ha ha. What do they call a Whopper?
Mance: I dunno, I didn't go into Chataya's.

Sorry, guys. I'll try to stick to the original post. It's so hard sometimes.

JS, the OP for this thread, accidentally called the Lord of Casterly Rock "Tywin Lancaster." Which makes the Lord of Winterfell "Ned York." Now in the history of The War of the Roses were any heirs or lords presumed dead and then suddenly show up again? I guess the underlying question is how closely does The War of the Five Kings resemble The War of the Roses?

 

[Culhwch]

JS, the OP for this thread, accidentally called the Lord of Casterly Rock "Tywin Lancaster." Which makes the Lord of Winterfell "Ned York." Now in the history of The War of the Roses were any heirs or lords presumed dead and then suddenly show up again? I guess the underlying question is how closely does The War of the Five Kings resemble The War of the Roses?

Superficially. Martin has said as much. It provided a certain amount of inspiration, but not the plan....

 

[Brian G Turner]

I seem to remember described in the books that the original Lannister plan was *not* to have Ned killed, precisely because he'd make a good bargaining peice - but Joffery gave the killing order as a stupid impetuous act.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Exactly. It was not in the Lannister's best interests to kill him, falsely or not. They already had his daughter lined up to marry Joffrey, and it would not make sense to kill him and start a war, drawing support away from themselves. It would have been much wiser to simply send Ned to the Wall, especially since he was a Stark, and that was seen by them as an honorable commitment. If they had him hidden away somewhere, what would their goal be? If he were secretly alive they could not ransom him or manipulate his followers to do their bidding. There would be no purpose to it.

 

[JohnSnow]

JS, the OP for this thread, accidentally called the Lord of Casterly Rock "Tywin Lancaster." Which makes the Lord of Winterfell "Ned York." Now in the history of The War of the Roses were any heirs or lords presumed dead and then suddenly show up again? I guess the underlying question is how closely does The War of the Five Kings resemble The War of the Roses?

This is all moot anyway because the Lacasters and Yorks inevitably were conquered by the upstart rebel forces of Henry Tudor right? So long live the Targaryans, or will it by the Greyjoys?

Anyway, Boaz, Maybe a better thread would be to discuss SoIaF written by Martin using Pulp Fiction as a foundation!

js

 

[ChasenFate]

Well I first read this thread a week ago I guess, and I didn't have time to respond. I never got a feeling that Ned was alive. I thought it was pretty clear his head was cut off.

 

[StarkReality]

Hi folks, new to the site and i too have just started re-reading A Song of Ice and Fire, in light of the upcoming TV show.

The reason i am here is that i have always had an inclination that Ned may still be alive. A Game of Thrones is laced with hints about escape routes from the dungeons, secret passages, Ned barely being recognisable, his farewell to Catelyn before first going to Kings Landing (resinged to the fact that regardless of what happened he had to say goodbye to his family). I dont, however, think its Tywins doing. I think there is something else going on that Martin has hinted at and in his own typical style, will drop on us when we least expect it. Yes, we will take a minute to get over it, but when we do we will bask in his writing genious once more. thoughts?

Please, dont quote me the "saying". i realise people may be repeating themselves, i'm just taking the "dont read ALL the other posts" shortcut!

 

[The Imp]

Hi folks, new to the site and i too have just started re-reading A Song of Ice and Fire, in light of the upcoming TV show.

The reason i am here is that i have always had an inclination that Ned may still be alive. A Game of Thrones is laced with hints about escape routes from the dungeons, secret passages, Ned barely being recognisable, his farewell to Catelyn before first going to Kings Landing (resinged to the fact that regardless of what happened he had to say goodbye to his family). I dont, however, think its Tywins doing. I think there is something else going on that Martin has hinted at and in his own typical style, will drop on us when we least expect it. Yes, we will take a minute to get over it, but when we do we will bask in his writing genious once more. thoughts?

Please, dont quote me the "saying". i realise people may be repeating themselves, i'm just taking the "dont read ALL the other posts" shortcut!

I have to start dinner, so I can't search until later. If you go back a bit though, you can find a fairly recent thread that I started which had at it's topic the "crackpot" theory that Ned is indeed alive.

 

[The Imp]

here you go
http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/530232-new-crackpot-theory.html

 

[Boaz]

I cannot offer more proof of Eddard's death than Sansa, Arya, Cersei and the High Septon were all there and they all believed he was Eddard. Since Tyrion and Tywin also believed Eddard was dead (and they were in positions to know the best kept secrets of the Lannsiter government), I'd say that's further proof.

The only way Eddard escaped was if Varys was involved. He could have been assisted by Littlefinger. Both have proven adept at helping fugitives escape King's Landing... e.g. Sansa and Tyrion.

For me, my faith is in GRRM. I think he knows he hooked people into being fans of ASOIAF when Eddard was executed. To produce Eddard now would cheapen his own story and destroy the trust his fans have given him.

GRRM has been struggling for years now with King Kong and the Mereenese Knot. If he's put that much time and effort into resolving plot difficulties, then I doubt he'll deus ex machina the habeas corpus of Eddard. I don't know Latin, but you get the point.

That being said, I love a good crackpot theory.... heck, I love a bad crackpot theory, too... so don't let me stop the creative juices flowing.

Finally, if Martin does produce the body, then it better be more than believable. It had better be the most well written, best planned, and most realistic aspect of the entire story...

 

[The Imp]

I cannot offer more proof of Eddard's death than Sansa, Arya, Cersei and the High Septon were all there and they all believed he was Eddard. Since Tyrion and Tywin also believed Eddard was dead (and they were in positions to know the best kept secrets of the Lannsiter government), I'd say that's further proof.

The only way Eddard escaped was if Varys was involved. He could have been assisted by Littlefinger. Both have proven adept at helping fugitives escape King's Landing... e.g. Sansa and Tyrion.

For me, my faith is in GRRM. I think he knows he hooked people into being fans of ASOIAF when Eddard was executed. To produce Eddard now would cheapen his own story and destroy the trust his fans have given him.

GRRM has been struggling for years now with King Kong and the Mereenese Knot. If he's put that much time and effort into resolving plot difficulties, then I doubt he'll deus ex machina the habeas corpus of Eddard. I don't know Latin, but you get the point.

That being said, I love a good crackpot theory.... heck, I love a bad crackpot theory, too... so don't let me stop the creative juices flowing.

Finally, if Martin does produce the body, then it better be more than believable. It had better be the most well written, best planned, and most realistic aspect of the entire story...

I still contend that although unlikely, there are good enough reasons to give this theory credibility that it can't be totally dismissed. Just the fact that Ned was killed in Arya's POV makes me suspicious. I'm not real interested in re-debating this though, unless someone who hasn't already discussed this does.

This is the crackpot theory that I'm most proud of btw

 

[Quick Ben]

As dead as Elvis.

 

[Boaz]

This just in... Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.