A Feast for Crows - disappointed

[Brian G Turner]

I got A Feast for Crows for Christmas, and begun reading it...

...but I have to say I'm feeling very disappointed so far.

George is a very talented writer, but as with my criticisms of Peter F Hamilton (and probably other people's criticisms of Robert Jordan) it seems that George is failing to tell a story, and instead allowing an undisciplined exploration of peripheral characters and sub-plot elements which are not essential to the main thrust of the story.

Opening chapter - a rush of introductions of unfamilar characters from a new point of view; next, a new point of view from the Iron Lands; then a new character from Dorne - a guardsman; then Cersei; followed by Brienne.

I've flicked through to see what point of view characters are used, and it seems that the only consistent ones from the beginning of the series are Sansa and Arya, along with the more recent Jaime.

Yes, I know he's split the character viewpoints between two books - but what is the actual point of the story in A Feast for Crows?

I want a story to have a story to tell - to me, ASoFaI was telling a story about conflict between Winterfell and Kings Landing, and how that would be overshaowed by the emergence of Dragons and Others.

But so far looking at A Feast for Crows, it's not going to tell me that - instead, it's going to be a self-indulgent exploration of the surrounding politics and from peripheral perspectives.

The Iron Lands should not be a focus for the story - the events in Dorne should not be the focus for the story - Cersei's first scene does nothing but recap what we've seen, and god knows why Brienne suddenly has to take a center stage - if the main Point of View characters cannot tell the story, then surely there is no story to tell?

Even Sansa and Arya have not been major figures in the series plot so far - Sansa is simply an observer of events to us, and Arya is living in her own little novel and failing to engage on the main plot events we've been introduced to.

The whole things feels undisciplined and irrelevant to the story George originally introduced to us in a Game of Thrones.

Surely a good story is pushed forward by clear protagonists we can follow, along with their crises and accomplishments?

I'm looking at the book now and feeling like giving up on it - I really hate the way there's a movement in modern SFF to focus on otherwise peripheral characters and actions in lieu of a main plot.

I realise that my opinion isn't necessarily going to be a majority one - but my feeling is that ASoFaI is an exercise in world building, not storytelling. In this, I think it encourages a gulf between mainstream literature and science ficiton/fantasy literature, the latter is going to be focused so much on providing a surrogate world to escape to, rather than focus on storytelling.

I really don't subscribe to the idea that if you tell a story, you have to use peripheral character viewpoints in equal (or greater amount) to the protagonist Points of View - to me it simply shows a lack of discipline on the part of the writers and editors to keep focused.

It's great that George can make his scenes real, but I don't want to read irrelevance, and looking at A Feast for Crows, it feels like that's what I'm going to be faced with reading.

What's worse is that if George has to keep throwing new peripheral characters on use, how is he going to be able to finish the series within his original projections? It feels like a series coming apart, and all for the similar criticisms I've read people throw at Robert Jordan.

Is this what is going to happen to A Song of Fire and Ice?

 

[sawtooth]

Even after reading AFFC twice, I would agree with much of what you posted.

I too was disappointed in AFFC, even though I've only waited three of the five years since ASOS in anticipation for this installment.

I found the storyline in AFFC to be weak and stumbling in many places. The characters and places, as enjoyable and endearing as ever, were described with a "thinness" that is uncharacteristic of GRRM.

What amazed me through the first three books was the ability of GRRM to weave his storyline through multiple perspectives and places. He created a sense of place that "feels" like a complete world. Westeros seemed like it was much more expansive than what GRRM described from page to page.

With AFFC, I didn't get that feeling. Again, it's the thinness thing. Hopefully were just at a lull and not the end of the forest going into ADWD.

To his credit, I thought I read someplace that GRRM didn't originally plan on including the events during this "lull" period. Maybe this "wandering" from the storyline was what he was trying to avoid and that we "as fans" pressed him to provide these details. Just thinking out loud.

 

[asdar]

I disagree, respectfully.

GRRM talked about the Title of the book and how well it fit what he wanted to happen. That was an exploration of the political standings of the world after the wars in the seven kingdoms.

In the first three books, which I loved, everything was action. We go from this battle to that battle, with only brief glimpses at the bigger picture. I felt for the first time in AFFC we were seeing behind the scenes. Now we're starting to catch a glimpse of the inner workings or the church, bank, faceless men and Maesters.

 

[Direwolf]

To his credit, I thought I read someplace that GRRM didn't originally plan on including the events during this "lull" period. Maybe this "wandering" from the storyline was what he was trying to avoid and that we "as fans" pressed him to provide these details. Just thinking out loud.

I agree with what's been said up to this point. I also recall reading that GRRM originally intended for there to be a several-year time gap between the events of a Storm of Swords and its follow-up. I think he even started writing book four, but gave up and restarted because it wasn't making any sense without including what happened during those several years. Hence a novel that feels kind of like "filler", letting us know what's happening in Dorne, the Iron Isles, etc., without really advancing the story he originally intended to tell. It also explains the lack of major events, like the deaths of Robert and Ned (AGOT), the siege of Kings Landing (ACOK), or the Red Wedding and battle at the Wall (ASOS).

I'm hoping he'll return to form in the next book, as he gets back to his original story outline.

 

[nixie]

I also felt let down by this installment.I know he split the book in two but nothing of note seemed to happen.No Tyrion,Jon,Stannis or Danni,I know they will all appear in the next book but the series has lost it's momentum for me.I couldn't lose my self in the story the way I did with the first three,I hope its just a temporary glitch and the next book gets back on track.*Ducks before the rotten fruit starts to fly*

 

[hedgeknight]

I read it once and have no desire to read it again...for now. Have considered reading the first three and then the fourth, but just can't get back into the Seven Kingdoms at present.
I have so many other new (used) books to read and for now, I'm just not interested in ASoIaF.
-g-

 

[Boaz]

Just a quick post.

I've felt something like this I, Brian. But as I've thought about it, I've come to this realization. I basically read the first three books without any input from the outside... yet now I've been online, read, discussed, and posted my own thoughts for a number of years before AFFC came out... so I wonder if the problem is me.

I read and accepted the story, through the first three, without hesitation, but my thoughts, expectations, and preconceptions for AFFC were shaped heavily by you (plural) and others.

 

[Culhwch]

What's worse is that if George has to keep throwing new peripheral characters on use, how is he going to be able to finish the series within his original projections? It feels like a series coming apart, and all for the similar criticisms I've read people throw at Robert Jordan.

Is this what is going to happen to A Song of Fire and Ice?

I certainly understand what you are saying, Brian,and would even agee with some of it. But I don't have a problem with exploring peripheral character story arcs. It's part of what attracts me to the story - the depth of the narrative, the depth of the world-building. I still think that the narrative has forward momentum, but certainly not as much as it did whilst the War of the Five Kings was taking place - which is understandable. It is a time of change, and the way Martin has dealt with that I find is adequate, if not precisely what I suspected. I sense that he is building up to what will be the final confrontation between Dany, the Westerosi, and the Others, however that pans out.

I feel the issue of whether or not the story has followed it's original projection - or whether it has started to unravel - is not really a call we can make. In the end, only George knew where he was going....

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I think that this book was in some ways a "filler".
GRRM intended a 5 year gap originally, and so possibly (and obviously we're trying to second guess the author, here) there was never going to be as much going on in this one - especially minus the Dany, Jon, Tyrion chapters which are probably the characters with more to deal with at the moment.

Having said that, for me important things did happen in this book, although they are truly just 'setting the stage', as it were, for the storm to break.

***SPOILERS***




The militarisation of the Faith is significant as it gives the religious orders real political power again.
The fall from grace of Cersei is important as she, arguably, was the driving force behind a lot of the events of the first 3 books (killing Robert and forcing her father into the field of battle to protect his grandson, perhaps before he was ready to do so)
The attack of the Iron Islanders against Highgarden may be a sideshow somewhat, but it's a sideshow which will impact on the powerbase at Kings Landing, as will the fate of Loras (what is it about the Kingsguard? Worse than King Tut's curse! ) and Margery.

Dorne was one of the biggest mysteries of the series so far;
Who's side are they on? Why didn't they support Kings Landing? What are they up too?
This book answered those questions and provided some new characters to watch out for.

Overall, I disagree that he has 'done a Jordan' so to speak.
He's broadened the scope of his series agreed, but he has not done so at the expense of the story - we needed to know what Dorne was up to, especially as it now looks as if they, or possibly the Iron Islanders, will play a key role in Dany's return to Westeros.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Just a quick disclaimer - although I admin the site, my opinions about fiction are entirely my own, and everyone is entirely free to disagree with them.

The feedback about it being a filler are disturbing, though - that doesn't sound like justification enough for a novel, in my opinion.

I'm nearly 100 pages in and nothing has happened: no story, just a series of events that could have taken a couple of paragraphs to relate in more meaningful scenes.

The first Sam Tarly scene is especially disturbing - it's a chapter about little more than Sam leaving the Wall area, but it reduces Jon Snow to that of peripheral character. Sure, Jon doesn't have his Point of View scenes until Dance with Dragons, but I don't like the role reversal.

I've commented before about disliking how areas of the first three seemed to drift into peripheral characters and events, but if it appears that AFFC is going to be nothing but that, I'm going to feel like I've entirely wasted my money.

Somebody slap George's editor for not focusing his attention on story.

 

[Boaz]

Just a quick disclaimer - although I admin the site, my opinions about fiction are entirely my own, and everyone is entirely free to disagree with them.

You are the man!

 

[ChasenFate]

Everyone is entitled to one screw up right? Well maybe this is Martin's. I personally wasn't disappointed....I was somewhat let down, but I did read 8 of Robert Jordan's books before I gave up. I think this isn't something he had planned, and after seeing the gap between the stories and how things didn't flow he filled it with this book. Maybe it wasn't right to release it split, I am sure he did what he thought was best....Unless the publiher had a gun to his head forcing him to release something, anything...And this is the outcome. Well that is just my .02. I was pleased overall and if this is as bad as it gets, well it is a lot better than Jordans fourth book.

 

[Boaz]

Are you suggesting the next book be called Return of the Dragons or The Targaryens Strike Back or Attack of the Dragons?

 

[ChasenFate]

Yea!! That is a great idea. I think we should email Martin and convince him.

 

[Chimeco]

I want to add my own voice to the disappointed masses. I am still a faithful fan yet Feast has confused me on what George is trying to do. The story moved very minimally from beginning to end and is a poor foreshadowing for Dragons to come. I know that some months have passed in the story, but am not quite sure how much, whether it be under, or over a year.

The perhiperal characters that have taken to the main stage were also unnecessary I think. Brienne had quite a bit of space allotted to her in Feast for accomplishing so little. Arya is somewhat unimportant now and I could not help feeling she was being put to "storage" as some characters are prone to have happen when authors have lost their way with them. Poor Arya. Sansa and the Lannister twins saved Feast being a complete letdown although again, none but Cersei accomplished much. I admit I was pleased with Jaime's character development, and as one of the only two "male" characters given a perspective in this volume (the other being sam), I found no choice but to identify myself to him. This bothered and repelled me somewhat from the whole story in general. As a reader, I'm much more of a Stark; I was confused and somewhat emotionally discontent with Jaime Lannister. Although his character idea is surperb, his past and sins are too dark for a satisfying character submerssion for me. And Sam, I cannot relate to at all...

In all, I felt a large portion of the story belonged more under character notes and reference material for "personal histories" than it did inside the story.

I'd also love to see a tally of names Martin managed to speel off in this volume. I would not be surprised if it topped a few hundred, with all the cousins and uncles and aunts he had introduced by character view, or way of dialog.

I try to imagine the pace and movement the story might have had with the Dragons chapters reinstalled and wonder if these missing chapters are what gives the story it's hollow and flat feel. I'll reserve my final opinion until I have read Dance with Dragons and hope for now, it doesn't go the way of WoT. It would be a hard thing to lose another great series to endless monologue.

 

[cuhli]

Finally finished "feast of crows" i was slightly dissapointed how they book was spilt but roll on the second half

 

[monkeydude]

My advice, I, Brian: Finish the book. Or maybe wait until A Dance of Dragons comes out and read them together.

You only find out why the Dorne and Iron Island chapters are important at the end of each. Cersei's chapters where meant to parallel with Daenary's chapters with how bad she ruled compared to Daenarys, and plus, but that is on pause until the Daenarys chapters are released. And I don't agree with what you said about how her first chapter was just a recap. It had some big character development for Jaime and cersei is starting to realize that she is losing him. Also Qyburn. But you learn more later on.

It's still unknown why Brienne's chapters are so important, although it does show us some human side to the lower class who the royal families seem to think low of. Arya, her story seemed to have a point for the first time. Sansa is finally coming into her own...

And I think I may just be streching this out to far...

I hope you can give it more of a chance and it might actually help to wait until the whole series is out so you can find out then if the story lost itself or if it came together.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Well, now that I've given up on actually reading a story, I've been enjoying the book more. George is very good at writing individual scenes, so I'm enjoying it on that basis, though it would be better if the novel was obviously plot-driven like most novels.

The Iron Lands always felt like a back-story distraction at the best of times. I've wondered before if a lot of Point of View characters wouldn't have worked better as individual background books that could have been released, after the main series was finished, so we could explore different perspectives of the story from them. But...I guess better to give George benefit of the doubt and let him finish, the review everything from there.

 

[Brys]

I'm one of the few people who hasn't been disappointed by A Feast for Crows. There are a few reasons not to do with the contents, so I'll just explain these briefly: 1) I've only been waiting a year since I read A Storm of Swords - there hasn't been a huge expectation from me to start with, because while I know it's taken him 5 years to write, it doesn't feel like that.
2) I've only just finished it, and started it less than a week ago - I've had plenty of time to see people very disappointed with the book. My expectations were low, especially when comparisons to Jordan were being made - I was expecting something much, much weaker than any of the other books in ASOIAF.

But I was pleased with it - it was still a very good novel IMO, if not quite on the level of the previous 3 books.
First, the flaws:
It was drawn out more than necessary - some of the Iron Islands chapters were far longer than necessary, at least one of the early Brienne chapters could be entirely removed and the Sansa, Arya and Dorne chapters were also drawn out.
And the ending - the Samwell chapter ending it was horribly anticlimatic, and in honesty the Jaime chapter before it could have been removed or put in the next book which would have been a much better end to the novel (given that it wasn't going to conclude anything).
But - I felt that the Cersei and Jaime chapters were on the whole excellent, and pretty much the whole of the last 200 pages (except for the last chapter) were brilliant, as good as A Storm of Swords, the worldbuilding improved hugely, there were many surprises and while I didn't enjoy the Arya or Sansa/Alayne chapters nearly as much as in the previous books, I think that the general idea behind them worked very well.
And the Brienne chapters - which seem to have completely divided the fan base. Initially, I didn't think they worked that well. They had good moments, but on the whole, weren't that great. But the ones later in the novel I really enjoyed, and after the second last Brienne chapter, I almost stopped reading because I was so sure that the Jaime chapter that came next would disappoint (needless to say, it didn't).
Any disappointment I have comes from the Sam chapters - he was an interesting character at the Wall, but in this book he spent the whole time complaining, worryinng, and not really doing anything. All of his chapters could have been merged into one or two much more effective chapters.
I now think that it would have been much better if the book hadn't been split, because there was such an improvement towards the end that I think may continue in A Dance with Dragons.

I think that arguing against their being viewpoints such as Cersei or Brienne used though is a bit pointless - after the Red Wedding, there were less characters to use for viewpoints, and these two are some of the most important, and most interesting, that were available.

 

[Rahl Windsong]

I see the problem as the way it was published, its only half the story no matter what Mr. Martin says. The previous three books had a complete feel to them AFFC felt incompete. He would have been far better off publishing it with a "to be continued" at least then the reader gets the entire story up until that point.

Introducing new characters in an epic storyline is not something new and I did not see any problem there. The only problem was that I felt cheated out of the entire story after waiting 4+ years to read it.

If you don't agree with me then ask one question,

If this was the best way to publish then why did they not publish the other part first? Well thats because AFFC would not sell as good then because all the magic, all the awe and wonder are in the part that will be A Dance With Dragons. The Game of Thrones is not as fun to read as it is when we get the rest with it, that became obvious to me a few chapters in. And I suspect the same will ring true with A Dance With Dragon's, because The Game of Thrones will be missing from it.

It is really a shame that a publishing decision basically ruins a really good story.

Rahl