The increasing role of Sparrows

[foxtrot023]

Hi, this is my first thread and post, so hello everyone,

In AFFC, we see a new player in the political and religious arena- The sparrows/religious militant orders. These guys certainly seem very serious, specially since they have detained both queens (both being part of VERY important and powerful noble families). It is my believe that the whole series of books will eventually devolve around the conflict between the Others and either the Lord of Light or Danys/dragons (hence a song of Ice and Fire). If that is the case, what role will the sparrows play? Will they become a player, or just cannon fodder?

what are the opinions on this?

regards,

 

[hedgeknight]

I think Martin is gonna show us the folly in giving a "religion" too much power. Personally, I would like to see the Sparrows go on a "cleansing" crusade and take down many of the present rulers and lords.

Oh, and welcome to chronicles!
-g-

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I've mentioned this before, but for the sake of actually posting on the correct thread :

I think that this may inadvertently give Jon Snow the men he needs to man the Wall. I'm sure the High Septon, like many nobles, is by now aware that Stannis and his "Red Woman" are at the Wall. Naturally, the High Septon and his Sparrows would want to crush the heresy of R'hllor at it's greatest source, and send troops to the North to meet them. It only makes sense that they would want to retaliate on those who are responsible for burning their idols and defiling the sanctity of their churches, as well as stop Melisandre before she can convert more powerful nobles to her god.

 

[TK-421]

I think all the Sparrows need to spend some time in the House of Black and White...
Seriously, I agree that is reminiscent on medieval days and the crusades. Depending on how much power they can gather and I don't think their goal is ultimate power (i.e. the Iron Throne), it will be interesting is they rally to Danny's cause when she finally lands in Westeros. Sure they have some knights but their power is still fairly limited. Danny would do well to use them to her advantage as she seems to have a knack for sticking up for the little guy. On the other hand, Margeary may have a sudden bout of religious zealousy and with Cersei out of picture (for now) and Jaime in the field and the return of Kevan to King's Landing uncertain, she will no doubt be able to further influence Tommen to give the Faith what it wants.
Jon Snow does not have much use for the Faith as he worships the old Gods of the North.
What part will the Others play???
I would hate it though to see all of this come down to a holy war in the end.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

I like AU's theory. here's my suggestion:

The high septon sends the sparrows to face Stannis.

Stannis' men, though outnumbered, are far better trained and lead and slaughter them.

Melisandre convinces Stannis to sacrifice the survivors, and as Stannis is on his "I'm-The-King" high-horse and as such the sparrows are rebels and guilty of high-treason/attempted regicide etc. consents.

Jon snow says that it's always been tradition that men under sentance of death are givien the option of taking the black and as Stannis is such a slave to tradition (I really believe him when he says he doesn't really want the throne, but under the laws and customs of the land he IS the heir to the throne, and that's it for him.) he agrees.

----

Or something along those lines.

 

[Boaz]

On his website, GRRM has not been reticent in making his political views public. His views are left of mine and mine are right of his. Now I'm not saying that he is bound and determined to shift the story to reflect his opinions on current American moral, political, economic, social, and religious issues, but we will all read into it what we will.

Martin is presenting the Sparrows and the Faith as the religious and political conservatives of Westeros. They are doing good in bringing the tyrant, Cersei Lannister, to justice and by rooting out corruption in the court. They want very much to end the suffering of the common man... and this is also good. But to what ends will they go to achieve their aims? Will power corrupt and absolute power corrupt absolutely?

I don't know if Martin will single the Sparrows out as a bad example or continue to show the perils of ruling that plagued Aerys, Robert, Viserys, Joffrey, Tywin, and Cersei.

The Sparrows should be fun to watch.

 

[gigi]

On his website, GRRM has not been reticent in making his political views public. His views are left of mine and mine are right of his.

Hmmm... And my views are left of Martins. I wonder if political views have any bearing on liking Catylen or not???

 

[napthali]

I think this is going to be a classic example of some of the greatest evils been committed in the name of religion. Those sparrows are going to run amok...mebbe their downfall will make people turn to the old ways. They have not brought Cersei down, mebbe just pricked her a bit. She's been saved for Daenerys and her little brother

 

[TK-421]

Martin is presenting the Sparrows and the Faith as the religious and political conservatives of Westeros. They are doing good in bringing the tyrant, Cersei Lannister, to justice and by rooting out corruption in the court. They want very much to end the suffering of the common man... and this is also good. But to what ends will they go to achieve their aims? Will power corrupt and absolute power corrupt absolutely?

Actually, I'm not sure he is making that link and as it remains to be seen to what ends they will go to achieve power. I don't fully understand American political/religious interplay (and wish not to know more). This is more in tune with Church-backed peasant revolts in Latin America during the days of US-backed dictators of the 1970's and 1980's (El Salvador comes to mind). Their role in the coming books I hope will be further developed more than just their role in the removal of Cersei and the influence on minor lords. But like I said in my earlier post, I hope GRRM does not reduce his wonderful saga into a holy war.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Hmmm... And my views are left of Martins. I wonder if political views have any bearing on liking Catylen or not???

I doubt it. Catelyn is all over the map! She negotiates with terrorists (the Lannisters), is in favor of the death penalty (especially now), is somewhat of an advocate for women's rights, although not to the extent of Cersei...

Oh well, at least she's articulate when giving her little speaches.

 

[Boaz]

Gigi, amusing.

TK, what was that called... Liberation Theology, iirc.

Thanks guys for not jumping all over me. I know I left some things unsaid in my last post. Those are for you to infer.

After the last presidential elections in America, Martin aired his emotions. But we both love our country and we both love ASOIAF... so I've decided to agree to disagree with him... and to stand back and try to be objective about possible correlations between Westeros and the USA. I'm happy to discuss these possibilities without getting emotional.

But back to the subject, at face value the Sparrows seem to be limited to the riverlands and the storm coast (?), you know, where the fighting has been the heaviest. So I wonder what political clout the new clergy will have in Highgarden, Dorne, Oldtown, the Vale, Casterly Rock, the Iron Islands, the North and the Wall... somehow I doubt their immediate clout will be much.

Stannis, Euron, and Aeron will fight them tooth and nail. Bolton, Kevan Lannister, Doran, and Mace will resist them. But what if Loras is injured and he attributes his healing to the Faith? He'd be a powerful tool for the High Septon.

Another point to think about is whether the Faith will welcome Dany. If she still has followers who are perceived to be slaves, then the Sparrows will resist her. But if she can convince them that she is a champion for all downtrodden and underprivileged people, then they will welcome her with open arms. So the Sparrows could play a major part in Dany's return.

 

[direghost]

Well one point of Brienne's chapters is that we've met the new High Septon, and he seems like a pretty decent fellow. I don't think we're going to get the Spanish Inquisition or Crusades with these guys--more maybe the Knights of Malta or something along those lines.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Boaz, I don't think GRRM will take any Westeros-USA analogy too far, if indeed that is what he's been doing. That would require him to climb into Bush's head, and then he wouldn't have anything at all to write about. JK. Sort of.

But seriously, I don't think that he'd bring US politics into it. If anything, I think writing would be an escape for him.

Moving on, I wonder if Dany will do a 'Queen Elizabeth' and remain single, marry her country, etc. Might work well with her, especially with regards to the church.

 

[TK-421]

Well one point of Brienne's chapters is that we've met the new High Septon, and he seems like a pretty decent fellow.

Wait, that was the new High Septon??? But how can he be in two places at the same time when the events are supposed to be happening paralell to each other?? I thought he was just some priest and we never really find out what becomes of him after Brienne and company are taken to Stoneheart. Does he just disappear or is he also hanged?

 

[napthali]

OMG...The thought of GRRM using his stories as any type of political statement makes me cringe. I still have nightmares about SoT.

 

[red_temple]

If you are referring to the leader of the Silent Brothers (sorry, I forget his name) on the Quiet Isle, then no - he isn't the High Septon. In fact, I don't think he was a Septon at all. IIRC, he was happy to have Septon Meribald (sp?) on the Quiet Isle so he can hear all the Silent Brother's confessions. I view him as some sort of monk, and just the head of that particular monestary.

 

[direghost]

It wasn't the leader of the Island conclave, it was the wandering priest. I could be wrong, but the description of the feet were exactly the same, and I believe the priest mentioned to Brienne that he was headed towards King's Landing. I have lent out my book or I would check to confirm.
The timeframe thing is roughly similar, but I think Brienne's chapters are a little before Cercei's.

 

[TK-421]

It wasn't the leader of the Island conclave, it was the wandering priest. I could be wrong, but the description of the feet were exactly the same, and I believe the priest mentioned to Brienne that he was headed towards King's Landing. I have lent out my book or I would check to confirm.
The timeframe thing is roughly similar, but I think Brienne's chapters are a little before Cercei's.

It is possible...but you'd you not think that as the new High Septon, he would perhaps have intervened in Brienne's hanging? I'm not convinced the wandering priest is the same as the High Septon but I do believe that he will reappear somewhere and have another part to play in the story.

 

[napthali]

Hmmm..you may have a point about the wandering priest..there was something about the way GRRM described the rise of the head sparrow..it was overly casual..but the wandering priest did not strike me as fanatic (which the head sparrow is)..he seemed more balanced..

another bit to reread /o\

 

[the smiling weirwood]

hmmm...Sparrows and Lions and Dragons, Oh My! I never saw any political/religious/social allegory/commentary in these books which is a good thing because if a had I would never have bought or read subsequent books. I'm still being rehabilitated from Sword of Truth(burn it!burn it!) and I really hate commentary/political parallel kind of stuff.