I have to laugh...

[HieroGlyph]

Sorry, but this has really made my day... (in a strange and ironic manner)

With regards to the 'now closed' but once rather popular thread that Hedgeknight began, namely "Disturbing theme..."

And with the fact that I havent posted within this GRRMartin section... much... Though I have read upto... and including 'AFFC'.

Ive left this section (GRRM) alone, for the most part, and often pondered upon its popularity. Sex and all its connotations does seem a fitting reason. So, after Hedgeknight making a valiant effort to reclaim the 'theme' that was the thread... It then didst die!

Well, I havent yet contributed anything to GrrM in truth. One way or t'other. Apart from maybe this: one of the reasons I quit smoking was to see how GRRM's 'A Song of Ice and Fire' will stand the test of time.
(No, Im not about to pop my clogs though you might wonder with all the dots before your eyes... theyre a sure sign of a doddering old fool, are they not? )

Yours,
As stirringly as possible within the etiquet of the boardgods...
HG

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Actually, I would say the main reason for A Song of Ice and Fire's success has been the strong characterisation GRRM created as well as his brave stance on killing 'main' characters!

Still, glad it's caused you to quit smoking...

 

[hedgeknight]

Kudos on quitting smoking, HG!
"Breathe the free air again, my friend." - Gandalf the White

As for Martin killing off major characters, I think this strategy (if that's what you call it) is what keeps drawing me back to the story time and time again. I love the fact that NO ONE is safe! Keeps me and my friends guessing as to who is gonna get the "axe" next!
Much better than most fantasy where the main characters are pretty much untouchable come hell or high water.
-g-

 

[Brys]

A quote from elsewhere which explains Martin's popularity very well IMO:

Martin is the vindication of traditional fantasy fans

Martin writes epic fantasy, and even relatively traditional fantasy - all the common elements are there, and he isn't subverting them - but he writes it very well. Martin's characterisation is some of the best in fantasy, and the best in epic fantasy. His plotting tends to be excellent and realistic as well. But he doesn't alienate the reader in the way some of the New Weird authors do - the prose is very accessible, sometimes very good, most of the time average, the world is a very familiar one - medieval Britain, but with hints of originality (the Wall, the Eyrie, Dorne) and Martin has no real weakness. His books have some degree of complexity, but are still aren't complicated compared to others like Erikson, and manages to make readers find the novels easy to read but full of depth at the same time.
The sex/violence generally has added to the realism of the world, though in A Feast for Crows it was bordering on gratuitous.

And we mustn't forget - Jordan's endorsement of the series. Commercially, this has proved hugely important. Many Martin fans are either current or ex-Jordan fans, and this helped to make Martin's name known in the fantasy genre.

Killing the main characters is one of my favourite aspects - in fact, just the characters are reason enough for me to see this series through to the end.

 

[HieroGlyph]

(Well, thanks for the support, HK, and I do like the Gandalf quote!)

Without going into plots and character developement and lack of the manifestations of magic, what IS it about GRRM and ASIF that brings about such popularity?

Brys, what is this "vindication" you use in your quote?
I cannot vindicate the 'soapy' feel it has left me with...
Stip out the sex (forced or not) I feel a lot of younger readers would be a little more than bored of his writings...
(Sorry if this has been repeated, but I hope for you (as in anyone) to convince me to re-read this series over and above a long list I have yet to catch up on!)
HG

 

[Brys]

The vindication is that there is actually one author in traditional fantasy who can actually write - he may not be the best in all of fantasy, but he proves that those who've spent their time reading mediocre novel followed by mediocre novel in a never ending sequence of huge books perpetuating the cliches of the genre, may not have wasted their time because something good could come of it.

I feel a lot of younger readers would be a little more than bored of his writings

I don't think ASOIAF is targetted at the younger audience - so if they feel a little bored by not having enough sex/violence in, it really doesn't matter. It's like faulting Peake's writing for it being too difficult for children.

Without going into plots and character developement and lack of the manifestations of magic

The real problem is that those are the things that make Martin popular. Other than that, it's his accessiblity - the prose itself is no more difficult to read than a Raymond E Feist novel, it's just the words are used better.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

The real problem is that those are the things that make Martin popular.

Those, and the fact that he out-and-out asked readers what it was they were looking for in a fantasy novel, and then gave them exactly what the consensus asked for in every detail.

Granted that few other writers would have the ingenuity and the skill to be able to take that and construct it into a story without all the seams showing.

 

[JohnSnow]

Couple of quick points while my son is in a Thomas-the-train-induced-coma...

First...If you read Hedgeknight's oP in the closed thread he specifically question aFfC not all of Martin's work. SO....

That aside, in reading Clash of Kings for a third time (which I know pales in comparison to others on this forum), I have paid close attention to his detail. The first time I read his work I found it very easy to read and get sucked in. Part of his gift is the detailed description of the world around the story.

Also his characters have such drastic differences in the existence. I have read some stories where in certain soliloquies I forget who is talking, thinking, etc..

Finally, to incorporate what a lot of these posts seem to focus on, GRRM creates realistic circumstances. Is it realistic that Kings and royalty scrogged just about anyone they wanted to...well yeah. Is it true that when particularily harsh winters were predicted that extra food stores were set aside...yes.

We focus on the shockk value things a little too much, but then again that is what we are attracted to as well. Nobody wants to read 500 pages of Aunt Velma knitting a baby blanket! Ever read Victor Hugo's Les Miserables, the unabridged version. Some parts of that are like being stabbed in the tear gland with a hot needle. But man is it realistic.

His books are popular the same reason the same reason the rubics cube was... some people can figure it out is a matter of seconds, others weeks (I was one that broke them apart and put the pieces back correctly by the way). No matter what type of person you were with the cube, you still wanted to mess with it. GRRM keeps killing off Starks or Lannisters, pillaging and burning the homes and castles we believe are safe, and yes on occasion has some character like Theon working over the ladies. And we keep coming back to see who gets it next.

js
---Remember pillage BEFORE you burn!

 

[Brys]

I've often heard Martin's prose and description called excellent, but I can't see it myself. His description isn't awful, like some other fantasy writers, but it's still pretty simple and hardly great. I don't think Martin can conjure up the images of the place with even a fraction of Peake's skill, and for those inside the subgenre, Kay and Bakker seem to have a far greater skill with words and conveying their world than Martin. Martin assumes the reader recognises most of the world, which means his description tends to be lacking in the Seven Kingdoms, and it's only in the less conventional places, like the Land beyond the Wall, where much description at all takes place, and even then, it's limited and far from evocative. Martin's great at describing characters, but IMO for the most part his description of places is at best mediocre.

 

[JohnSnow]

Thats the great thing about freedom. Everyone can have their opinion!

I don't know if Martin is the best I have ever read in terms of description, but I know I have read others who are very descriptive and have very little happen to keep me interested. Martin seems to exist in the very happy medium for me.

 

[hedgeknight]

I've often heard Martin's prose and description called excellent, but I can't see it myself. His description isn't awful, like some other fantasy writers, but it's still pretty simple and hardly great. I don't think Martin can conjure up the images of the place with even a fraction of Peake's skill, and for those inside the subgenre, Kay and Bakker seem to have a far greater skill with words and conveying their world than Martin. Martin assumes the reader recognises most of the world, which means his description tends to be lacking in the Seven Kingdoms, and it's only in the less conventional places, like the Land beyond the Wall, where much description at all takes place, and even then, it's limited and far from evocative. Martin's great at describing characters, but IMO for the most part his description of places is at best mediocre.

Thanks for making this point. It's descriptive CHARACTERS that I care about anyway (and most other readers would agree). I mean who gives a rat's ass about how many tiles are on the inside of a room or the color of the dress with its spidery lace and woven gold beads or...well, you get the picture - ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Jordan masters in boring the crap out his readers with a deluge of detail that is all but meaningless. And Bakker is on crack or something - dull, dull, dull - "the senseless ravings of a lunatic mind!" (Young Frankenstein - probably the greatest movie of all time! But that's another thread.)
Martin's characterizations are rich and 3-D and completely suck in his readers. And that's what counts.
-g-

 

[JohnSnow]

Martin assumes the reader recognises most of the world, which means his description tends to be lacking in the Seven Kingdoms, and it's only in the less conventional places, like the Land beyond the Wall, where much description at all takes place, and even then, it's limited and far from evocative. Martin's great at describing characters, but IMO for the most part his description of places is at best mediocre.

I agree that Martin takes the time to fully describe places that are out of the ordinary. I don't need five pages describing a grove of trees , but his description of Qarth (aCoK) is worthy of some respect. The ability to describe only certain things and allow my imgination to do the rest is something that draws me into his work.

If Martin is over descriptive with something to a fault, it is food. The man has a serious thing for what people eat.

 

[hedgeknight]

I agree that Martin takes the time to fully describe places that are out of the ordinary. I don't need five pages describing a grove of trees , but his description of Qarth (aCoK) is worthy of some respect. The ability to describe only certain things and allow my imgination to do the rest is something that draws me into his work.

If Martin is over descriptive with something to a fault, it is food. The man has a serious thing for what people eat.

AMEN BROTHER SNOW!
And every time I read a Martin "food" scene I get hungry. Like when he's describing Shae or Ygritte...I get hungry too. Heh.
Yeah, I know, not appropriate. (sound of slap on the hand)
-g-

 

[JohnSnow]

Like when he's describing Shae or Ygritte...I get hungry too.

ehhhhhhhhhnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!


z...z...z...z..z.z.z..z..

 

[Culhwch]

AMEN BROTHER SNOW!
And every time I read a Martin "food" scene I get hungry. Like when he's describing Shae or Ygritte...I get hungry too. Heh.

Hmmm. I just get murderous. My two least favourite characters.... 'JUST DIE ALREADY!'

 

[HieroGlyph]

I remember Ygritte DID die - yes, we lose characters, something else thats been alluded to... See!?! I paid a fair bit of attention to this series and, dont get me wrong, I do await the next one... But... I may put it off till its in paperback this time, or see if I can catch it from the library.

Your replies are great, folks. And John, I take it you may well be the real John Snow... Jon was/is my favourite part of the stories, I think. Yes, some wonderful stuff in there. Obviously I am hooked and wriggling and dont know what its about, because maybe Ive moved on to Erikson and others all too quickly: its the re-reading I was prompting for prompts for...
And some of the characters are oh-so-grrrrr, like a 'soap', like retelling of medieval feudal Brittain...with a spattering of myth and legend that isnt...

So why are we all still wriggling? Are we the worm or are we the fish?
MrM HAS obviously done a good job AND a good bit of researching our wishes... And where has that laughter gone? Oh, it was the irony... I didnt wish to join the masses and become a sheep in the crowd... Wait, I am a sheep in the crowd... I must stand up and point out the fact that we dont have to act like we're all sheep (Oh be quiet, we're trying to read...)

Sorry, you folks have reminded me of GRRMs worth (and it wasnt just the sex and gore...)


HG

 

[Brys]

I might wait for the paperback for this one, not because I don't enjoy the series a lot or because A Feast for Crows was disappointing, but because I've got a feeling that A Dance with Dragons won't be nearly as good - there will only be a couple of interesting characters, and while the storyline at the Wall should be good, and Tyrion's storyline should be good, I never enjoyed the Daenerys viewpoints that much though it had good moments, but the characters of aDwD I think will be the weaker ones. Maybe when book 6 comes we'll get something on a level with A Storm of Swords, but that's a long wait.

 

[HieroGlyph]

You have a 'feeling'? Or is this just experience and its caution holding you back from expecting too much? The latter, I feel, is my former...

 

[HieroGlyph]

But I hope you people do know what I mean about the popularity of GRRM, though, dont you!?! Out of all the superb authors already included GRRM currently has 175 separate threads, compared to the nearest in their 30's for any other author.
Sorry, but that seems utterly disproportionate!
Full stop, peeps.

 

[Brys]

Or is this just experience and its caution holding you back from expecting too much?

Partly that - I've expected too much out of other authors before, but not of Martin - but at the moment I don't see how Martin can create anything close to being as good as A Storm of Swords without any of the King's Landings events, and it looks like the climaxes he set up in a Feast for Crows aren't going to be resolved. It could be very good, but I don't see how it's possible for it to be his best when he's only using half the characters.

Hieroglyph, I agree - Martin may be a great author, but he seems to be achieving a status as the new Tolkien in terms of popularity. By contrast, Bakker's barely heard of, yet he's as good a writer as Martin and writing in the same subgenre.