AFFC - afterthoughts

[Brian G Turner]

****SPOILERS ALERT!!!!****





EDIT: Missed the boat on my own forums - here are links to threads on specific discussions:

General AFFC discussion:
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8151-spoilers-affc-general-discussion.html

Cersei and Margaery:
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8086-affc-spoilers-margaery-and-cersei.html

The Hound and Gregor:
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8549-the-hound-spoilers.html

Role of the sparrows:
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8929-the-increasing-role-of-sparrows.html

Sir Loras:
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8569-ser-loras-spoiler.html

The Blackfish:
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8560-spoiler-the-blackfish.html

Sans's future:
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8455-sansas-future-spoilers.html

Brienne:
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8498-quick-brienne-question-affc-spoilers.html






So, what are everybody's thoughts after A Feast for Crows, especially with how the story developed?

For a start: do you think that Brienne is now dead?

Also, I was a little confused about whether the Hound was alive or not - he's dead, but has he joined Beric's group? Although it seemed that it was simply his helm being worn about (ie, by Lem), I'm under the impression that Lem was specifically referred to as the Hound. Confused.

Also, is the Mountain really dead? We hear of him dying, then the Dornish prince believes that his head is being brought to them. But is that information true?

It almost seems a shame that the Mountain and the Hound weren't going to enter a final battle at some point, but I guess George saw that as too much of a cliche?

As for Cersei - was great seeing how insecure and foolish she was - too busy trying to act like her father than actual do as he did.

Not sure what's happening with Sam Tarly - at one point, was really hoping we'd had Aemon getting to see Dany, then for a moment I thought Sam would end up delivering news of his death to her - curious as to how that will develop with him back on Westeros, and so near the advances of the Ironmen.

Now that the sparrows have the queens, the position of Tommen is curious - seems odd that there's been no attempt to rescue Cersei - but is Tommen really going to be king over the areas of Westeros loyal to him before, or is the civil war going to be more protracted? Dorne is obviously courting for Dany, but how well will HighGardon and the Tyrell's act now that Maegery is imprisoned and accused?

As for the Onion Knight - he was given plenty of space before, but now we are simply told he's dead. Can that really be the case? If so, seems disappointing that he was discarded so easily, though I can't say I was ever a fan of his POV scenes anyway.

As for Sansa - do you really think Renley's plan is going to work? He's obivously set himself up in an interesting position - but do you expect little Robert to survive the machinations against him, or is Sansa Stark really going to get her day of glory in the Vale of Arryn?

Arya continues to exist apart from the general plot - she's become more interesting, but she's still not really doing anything. How do you see her developing for book 6 and 7? What is it she can or could actually do to get back into the story? What does it mean that she's blind? And how will she get back with her wolf?

As for Jaime - great to see his character develop - but how will he fit into the overall political climate? He's still a kingsguard and sworn to protect Tommen - but how is he going to fit in with what's gone on so far? Although penitent, it's hard not to feel that he's still on the wrong side and set up for a fall.

Anyway...discussions for those who've read AFFC and want to explore some of the aftermath.

 

[The Other]

A few thoughts that I had after completing AFFC were along these lines as well, however, it's my belief that there is more to these events than what GRRM put down on paper. Maybe we need to take some things to another level of interpretation, without hopefully going over the top.

For instance, the Hounds death seems an incredibly important piece of information simply because of the repercussions it has for many of the other plot lines, namely Brienne's search for the Stark girls and the conflict between Sandor and Gregor that was foregrounded heavily in other character intereactions with the Hound that we saw in previous books.

In my opinion, it seemed odd that Sandor would die, due to all the growth we have seen in his character for a while now (his affection toward Arya and Sansa among other things), but on the other hand, GRRM has made it clear that no one is safe in his universe. However, Brienne's conversation with the Elder Brother can be interpreted in more ways than one.

Firstly, the Hound is dead, gone, forever. No questions asked.

Secondly the manifestation of the Sandor's persoanlity as a cruel and heartless individual has passed on in the form of the "hound" persona. In other words, the Hound is dead, but Sandor Clegane may still be walking around Westeros and could possibly be in hiding. (I'd consider this my preferred story path.)

You may be able to tell that I have thought about the subject a fair bit. But just some observations to get the ball rolling.

 

[Culhwch]

Well, Brian (and The Other) I think almost everything you noted has been discusses endlessly or at least touched upon on other threads here in the last two or so months, so you might like to do some trawling. But a few quick points...

General consensus is that Sandor isn't dead, and is in fact the big monk Brienne sees on the Quiet Isle.

I think also the general consensus is that Brienne won't die, and discussion has turned to what the word was she shouted that will set her free.

I don't think Davos is dead (I hope not, he's my fave character and PoV) but instead Manderley duped Cersei into releasing his son and is in fact allied to Stannis.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Thanks for the heads up - I tried to avoid the previous threads to avoid spoilers - will rejoin them.

 

[kimb]

I still want to see the Mountain and the Hound duke it out. But they are both "dead". My thought on why I might get my fight...

The "Hound" is dead as many of you have said, but I also agree that Sandor is still alive on Quiet Isle. Now matter what positive changes happen to them there, I can guarantee you he would still want to fight his brother if the opportunity arose.

As for the Mountain- we really have no idea what is going on. By the discussion Cersei had with Qyburn, I don't think the skull they sent to Dorne was the Mountain's.
Qyburn's chain was taken away because he studied about both the living and the dead which probably means he knows black arts. Has he been using other subjects to keep Mountain alive? He's taken Cersei's maid and two people from the puppet show for experiments.

 

[Sword of the Morning]

For a start: do you think that Brienne is now dead?
Also, I was a little confused about whether the Hound was alive or not - he's dead, but has he joined Beric's group? Although it seemed that it was simply his helm being worn about (ie, by Lem), I'm under the impression that Lem was specifically referred to as the Hound. Confused.
Also, is the Mountain really dead? We hear of him dying, then the Dornish prince believes that his head is being brought to them. But is that information true?

To answer, well what I think..
1. Brienne is/was in really bad shape after her incounter with Biter. So even if she is saved by the is one word, she got some healing to do. As for the word, I believe that she would never say sword. I dont believe that Brienne would kill or try to kill the one man that kind of cares for her, also I believe she does like/love Jaime (the one handed Jaime at least)

2. Yes the Hound is dead. But Sandor lives. I personally think that the big grave digger at the quite island is Sandor. I believe that G.R.R.M. has played a little word game with us. THe Hound was a fighting machine, Sword and armor nothing more. But in Sansa POV we find that Sandor and the Hound are two personalities in one body, Sandor is the better side to him. So when the head monk guy from the quite island says that he "buried" the hound i think that the sword weilding side is died.

As for Cersi, a blind man could have seen it coming. Enough said.

I'm sad that Maester Aemon past on. I know he was 102 but I really like his non pov.

Sam is in a interesting position. Can't really call whats going to happen. But what about Pate and the other Pate- damn cliff hanger.

Arya and this whole faceless man thing is pretty trippy. We want more info G.R.R.M

Davos can't die off scene. If he dies its gonna be good. Not just put in the dungoen to be forgotten or shortend at the head a bite.

 

[Critical Matt]

Unfortunately, all those plotlines you bring up will not be addressed in the next book. The next book will be the missing POVs from this book, and hence that is why AFFC is a broken book. You'll need to wait 3-4 years to get your next fix.

Although the author did have advice for readers bummed out about his decision to cut the book up. He said when book 5 comes out, one could take a razor, fit in the chapters how one sees fit, and take it to a bookbinder. How customer oriented.

Anyway, I loved the first three books. AFFC was mediocre at best, and I don't deny I'll pick up the next one the day it's published.

 

[Adasunshine]

Question from a newwie

First off, AFFC frustrated me despite GRRM's explanation for not including my fave POV's but overall, couldn't put it down, had to know what happened next and am eagerly awaiting ADWD.

Back to my question...

Does anyone know why Cersei went around claiming Tyrion was "hers" once he had been born? I've never quite got to the bottom of this and I'm quite sure it's also linked with how well Jaime & Tyrion bonded.

Plus there's always Tyrion's parentage up for debate anyway, just thinking out loud, wondered if any of you could help me?

Cheers

xx

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Does anyone know why Cersei went around claiming Tyrion was "hers" once he had been born?

I don't have the book to hand, but if you're referring to the flashback when Tyrion's just been born and she goes down to the wetnurse and threatens her, I don't think she says he's "hers" (for one thing, she would have been about 9 or something!!), she says he's a Lannister, and as such, she has a claim on him and she, as a wetnurse is just "a teat with legs" or something similar!

Tyrion is definately the offspring of Joanna (Tywin's wife). After all, she dies giving birth to him!!
Any rumours about Tyrion's parentage usually centre round whether Aerys Targaryen raped Joanna and he was the result, but I think this highly unlikely as Lannister blood is 'regressive' compared to Baratheon for instance, I think some element of Targaryen would show through (violet eyes, white hair) if that was the case. Also I think if there was even a chance of that being the case, Tywin would have had Tyrion killed a long time ago. As it turns out, he should have had him killed years ago, then he wouldn't have been slain himself!

This is straying from the point, but I've often wondered why Tywin didn't pressurise his son to join the Night's Watch like Randyll Tarly did with Sam. Mind you, Sam was a lot easier to scare I'm guessing as stood in the way more than Tyrion did. Still, one slip in battle and Tyrion would be the heir asssuming Tywin & Jamie died...

 

[Raven]

WS: well, Tyrion was in a different position. He was embarrassing but hey, he wasn't the heir. Until Tyrion was about seven Jaime was clearly the heir, so no problem.

Even afterwards, Tywin tried to carry on as if Jaime was still his heir, apparently, and simply refused to acknowledge Tyrion would inherit. Nobody seems to have bothered to correct him, largely due to the fact that Tywin was a hell of a lot more powerful than Randyll was.

Ultimately Mace Tyrell would have had to judge who Randyll's heir was if he'd tried to disinherit Sam, and he would legally have had no other choice than to confirm Sam. Whereas only the king could have overruled Tywin if he had simply refused to make Tyrion his heir, and that would have risked rebellion or war.

For a clever man, Tywin was very good at denial, you notice that?

 

[Jinglehopper]

These are all interesting thoughts. One moment that I especially liked from AFFC was Jaime's Aunt (Tywin's own sister) saying that Tyrion was his father's son. Made all the conflicting emotions concerning Jaime's release of Tyrion and the murder of Tywin even more complex. Perhaps now Jaime will realize that Tyrion is the ruler that he and Cersei could never be.

But what I disliked about AFFC, was that more questions were brought up, more seeds planted than sporuted. I guess that's to be expected with a "middle" novel but it did seem the non-stop pace of the first 3 books ground to a screeching halt with this one.

My thoughts concerning points debated above:

Brienne is dead. Cat killed her. She was a somewhat useless character. I wish she had had some breakthrough, a moment of romance in her life, or a feeling of contentment before death, but I think her death is true to Martin's form. She's out like Robb, Ned, Tywin and everyone before her. (Bout time a female POV died off, )

The Onion Knight. I think he's alive. No reason other than he wouldn't have been killed off-screen. Cersei was given faulty information which she believed.

Sam Tarly is, slowly, growing nuts, becoming a man. This is a good thing. He will learn all he can from the maesters and become a valuable advisor to the Lord Commander on the Wall.

Arya has the most possibilities. Will she go to Jon? Will she finish her training and forget all she was? Or will she always keep a part of Arya Stark and Needle under the stone? But I agree that her chapters were a lot of nothing much happening.

As for the next book, it can't come fast enough. What do you guys think about Bran? Will he be completing his 3rd-eye training? Will Jon side with Stannis? Is Rickon going to be a new POV? I have to admit, I'm not looking forward to the Dany chapters. I never really liked her character very much, too much dragon blood, and it looks like she's going to be more static this book. No more city hopping and slave freeing, which was the only thing that kept me interested in her. We shall see.

 

[Rahl Windsong]

Unfortunately, all those plotlines you bring up will not be addressed in the next book. The next book will be the missing POVs from this book, and hence that is why AFFC is a broken book. You'll need to wait 3-4 years to get your next fix.

Although the author did have advice for readers bummed out about his decision to cut the book up. He said when book 5 comes out, one could take a razor, fit in the chapters how one sees fit, and take it to a bookbinder. How customer oriented.

Anyway, I loved the first three books. AFFC was mediocre at best, and I don't deny I'll pick up the next one the day it's published.

I totally agree, George made a huge mistake with the way AFFC was published and I suspect in a future publish this may be corrected at least I hope this to be the case.

No matter how much he insists, AFFC is only 1/2 the story and the more boring part of the story at that.

Rahl

 

[YOSSARIAN]

There is a scene in the book where Taena Merryweather tells Cersei she was not a maiden when she was married. After some coaxing from Cersei she describes her first lover as a Lyseni sea captain and half pirate with a prominent facial scar. Could this be Sallador Saan? I seem to recall him having such a scar, but am not quite sure. If it is Saan, we have another reason to believe Taena is someone's spy.

 

[Boaz]

After having a few months to digest AFFC, I wanted to bring this up.

After ASOS, Martin was originally planning on jumping forward five years with the story, correct? But then he decided to go ahead and fill in the gap. Soooooo, if AFFC and ADWD were not gap fillers, then what would we be reading now? Fast forward four years and what plot lines would have been seriously advanced or resolved and who would be dead?

For instance, I think Brienne would still be alive if he'd not filled in the gap, so I am going to assume that she's going to survive her encounter with Stoneheart.

Also, Tommen would still be on throne in four years, so I cannot picture Margaery suffering too much from the Sparrows. In fact, Tommen would be 13 or 14 years old in four years, so I don't expect he and Margaery to be "virgins" then.

I do expect, Lancel, Victarion, Damphair, Doran, Taena, Mance, Jojen, Edmure, Pycelle, Jeyne Westerling, Grenn, Daario, Bronze Yohn, Falyse, Jorah, and Thoros to be dead in four years.

 

[shugahsveet]

Taena's lover was definitely Jaqen, the person he turned into when he left Arya at Harrenhall, who is also the alchemist in the prologue of AFFC. They all have a facial scar, black hair, etc. -- well, Jaqen does once he changes his face at Harrenhall.

Brienne is totally going to scream out "Ice" because Cat condemns her for having that "Lannister" sword -- but Jaime says it is part of Ice, so she would be defending Ned Stark's daughter with his own steel.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Taena's lover was definitely Jaqen, the person he turned into when he left Arya at Harrenhall, who is also the alchemist in the prologue of AFFC. They all have a facial scar, black hair, etc. -- well, Jaqen does once he changes his face at Harrenhall.

Why though? She said he was her first love, so it must have been a fair while ago? why the hell would anyone hire a faceless man to sleep with Taena? Fair enough jaqen could have slept with her before becoming a faceless man, but i can't believe he would ever use "his" face whilst on a mission when he appears to have the ability to change his appearance at will.

It's not jaqen. Saladoor Saan (sp) maybe, probably even, but not jaqen.