Robert Jordan vs.....

Lukeometer

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When I think of a real epic fantasy series, i think of Robert Jordan's "wheel of time", raymond e. feist's vast collection of books, George r.r.martin's "a song of ice and fire" and ian irvine's "a shadow on the glass series" and "well of echoes" series. However which of these, and the many other epic series' out there that i didn't mention can be unanimoulsy said to be the victor? Which have their more finer and original points? Which caused the most reader excitement? All these questions and more i have pondered and yet an answer still doesn't become immediately apparent.If someone made me say right pick one series, and one only as you favourite - i would probably be inclined to say Robert Jordan's (otherwise i would post it on here i suppose). Your opinions?
 
Well as you're new here I'm guessing you've not yet had a chance to peruse the unlmited amount of debate and conjecture surrounding this particular topic.

As someone who has read reasonably extensively within the fantasy Genre and whose fav sub-genre is EPIC I'd say my favs by a margin are currently R Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing Trilogy, GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire and Steven Eriskion's Malzan series, the latter of which is my fav fantasy series ever and not just becasaue it's in the EPIC mould.

Generally speaking you'll probably find that opinion about the so-called heavyweights of EPIC fantasy appears divided b/w GRRM and Erikson with Jordan trailing somewhat behind these.

I wouldn't automatically have thought of Feist (whom I've read a lot of) as being consdered EPIC so much as a series of stories/trilogies contained within the one major fantasy setting.

Should be some interesting responses though as I'm sure Tolkien will also get a mention...

PS Nice to see another Ian Irvine fan on the boards...
 
Lukeometer said:
Another point, where is the sub-forum for Ian Irvine?
As yet it doesn't exist. Basically the process is that if enough interest is shown by a number of members over a period of time about a particular author then the moderators of this site will take note and consider creation of a sub-forum under the Authors forum.

Essentially a ground-swell of support for a specific author generally has the best chance of succeeding by you and other members posting and responding to discussion threads on this and other authors in the General Books subforum or another part of the Books and Literature forum.

I normally perform a search of the Chronicles forum first to ensure the author doesn't already have a discussion thread present. From memory we've certainly disucssed Ian Irvine before on the General Book forum and he may even have a thread of his own over there already, which I myself could've begun.

If you like maybe you could add to an existing thread or post a new thread over there highlighting Mr Irvines work?

Hope this helps to answer your query and NO I'm not an official moderator as I've chosen not to be at this point in time but this is my understanding of how an author forum would basically come into being...:D

Good luck...:)
 
As usual, I agree with Gollum here - Erikson's the master of epic fantasy, Bakker and Martin are the other two authors on the same level as him, and Jordan is trailing a long way behind.
While there are no great stylists in epic fantasy I can think of, Jordan stands out to me as one of the weakest - he utilises awful overdescription and he's no good at description. (And by comparison, I, Brian is improving his by cutting down his novel from what was some very good, if overdrawn description, while Jordan could never hope to achieve the former, let alone the latter). Bakker's the best prose writer, but in epic fantasy, it tends to be the other factors that are important.
So in plot and characterisation does Jordan stand up? No - he starts by copying Tolkien, and is coming to the end of the series by forgetting that he even had a plot. His characters are laughably unrealistic and cliched, and the female characters tend to be interchangeable.
What about worldbuilding? His greatest strength, and it still seems to consist of little more than standard cliches, with brief hints of imagination. Take a look at Bakker's far more clever approach, of deliberately taking a traditional fantasy story and creating something entirely new out of it - Tolkien without the sentimentalism. (This is what he says himself, and it seems pretty accurate).
Though I keep mentioning Bakker, I still think Erikson and Martin are slightly better than him, in that order. That said, Bakker's the only one to have a completed epic fantasy series of these three.

As for other epic fantasy series, I'd think of JV Jones' Sword of Shadows, Greg Keyes' Kingdom of Bone and Thorn, and particularly Patricia McKillip's Riddlemaster trilogy.
 
GOLLUM said:
As yet it doesn't exist. Basically the process is that if enough interest is shown by a number of members over a period of time about a particular author then the moderators of this site will take note and consider creation of a sub-forum under the Authors forum.

Ok then so why is there no subforum for R Scott Bakker then? He seems to have had a lot of interest and possibly has earned a spot? Yeah yeah Gollum you might mention my 10% deal again :rolleyes: which of course does not exist though I am open to negotiate a deal if Scott is reading this forum! :D

Aye Erikson is at the top for the moment definetly my favorite. Also recently my best online gaming friend for like the past 10 years I finally talked him and his wife into purchasing the Malazan series and I have not seen him or his wife in game (World of Warcraft) since! ...hehe

Rahl

PS:Ian Irvine, thanks for that I will look for those books!
 
Bakker hasn't had enough threads on him. I think there need to be 5 threads on an author (specifically) need to create a subforum for him. People may mention him a lot, but only briefly so far. If you start some indepth discussions on The Prince of Nothing series in the general book forums, then maybe we'll see

I wouldn't automatically have thought of Feist (whom I've read a lot of) as being consdered EPIC so much as a series of stories/trilogies contained within the one major fantasy setting.

Feist's series are generally epic fantasy - multiple characters, large world + worldbuilding aspect, an epic conflict - but he does lean towards the sword and sorcery side of fantasy (major influences on him being Fritz Leiber, Robert Howard, Jack Vance). Some of his latest novels are much closer to sword and sorcery, but still can just be included in the epic subgenre.
 
Well, first I have to admit I haven't read any of A Song of Ice and Fire (I'm waiting for him to finish the series before I read, or I know I'll be riddled with impatience, like with other authors).

Having said that, I think Bakker is one of the most exciting authors I've read in recent times. And I guess I must also add that compared to most people on here, I haven't read that much... but still, he's great. The PoN series feels more real than any other fantasy book I've read. Perhaps that has something to do with his limited use of magic, but also probably is due to his writing talents, as well as his allusions to ancient Earth history... or at least the links I make in my head with old cultures I see on the History Channel.

So yeah, Bakker isn't popular enough for his own thread on these boards yet, but mark my words that ten years from now we will all be lapping up the 8th or so volume of his three seas triple-trilogy (or however many books they convince him to write in the end), and he will have the recognition he deserves world wide.

To tie back with the opening post... I think Jordan is too old fashioned to be ranked as either Epic or great, but I do really enjoy reading his books.

PS - I don't like Ian Irvine.
 
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8578-r-scott-bakker.html

Ok thanks for the answer. I am reluctant to start another thread because I started the one above.

Brys said:
To tie back with the opening post... I think Jordan is too old fashioned to be ranked as either Epic or great, but I do really enjoy reading his books


Agreed and the first ...hummn five books in WOT I thought were very enjoyable to read but the series went downhill after that and in my opinion has begun to redeem its early luster in KOD.

Rahl
 
The quote's by Green, not me.;)
Green said:
To tie back with the opening post... I think Jordan is too old fashioned to be ranked as either Epic or great, but I do really enjoy reading his books

I don't know how being old fashioned prevents his novels from being epic - after all, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is more or less the epic fantasy series, fitting the description almost perfectly. Jordan has all the elements of epic fantasy, and I don't see how he doesn't come into the subgenre. He may not be epic in his ambitions with it, certainly, and not close in scope to Tolkien or Erikson, but he's still more epic than most. I don't think he can be great now, but it's got nothing to do with being old-fashioned - simply he let his series run on far too long, and he didn't have the writing skill to keep up the entertainment and pace of the early novels.

Was KoD a significant improvement, then? I'm not talking about an improvement on Crossroads of Twilight, because I don't think it's possible not to improve on that, but an improvement on books 7-9?
 
Ok well too many skirts smoothed, braids pulled, bottoms switched, staring holes in each other, baths, etc and after a while I just got too bored with all that. I agree the story is really good I own every single book in the series and somehow I ended up with two copies of some of them including Crossroads (christmas presents though I already had them and now I see a need to provide lists before the holliday!) Aye you are right I somehow quoted the wrong part of Green's post and now I have lost all train of thought on what I wanted to post...in fact if you notice I quoted you saying something Green posted I think it has something to do with no sleep last night ...please accept my appoligies. This story is really EPIC and I would like to appoligize to Mr. Jordan himself for saying its not.

I really did like KOD as I felt Mr Jordan was able to make the reader live the utter chaos and desperation of the characters as the last battle approaches and I look forward to the conclusion.

Rahl
 
He has a big world, lots of characters and cultures, but he gets so caught up in the humdrum aspects of his world that it rarely actually feels like a world at all. More like a lesson in sewing or something. His style lacks the distance that I, personally, would need in order to feel as though I were reading something epic.

I always thought that Stephen King's talent was taking the boring and making it interesting, whereas Jordan takes the interesting and makes it... erm... less interesting ;) And what should have been epic is reduced to little more than marital squabbling and court gossip.

"The Seanchan are threatening to take over the entire continent!"

"Forget that! What did Elayne have for breakfast? She's pregnant, you know." YES, I KNOW.

Just my opinion, of course.
 
How about the ability two conjour that epic feeling without having to chop down half the Amazon for paper, if anyone has read Morningstar by David Gemmell then you will know what I mean. Just 280 pages long I got more of an epic feeling from it that from any of the WoT books. Maybe it was the music I was listening to but I don't think so.
 

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