Who is the heir to Winterfell?

[Brian G Turner]

Question came up in another thread, and got me thinking about it today...

The Lannisters and Petyr seemed to think that Sansa was the heir to Winterfell...

Yet, Bran is still alive, though no one knows it - and as the eldest surviving son of Lord Eddard, is therefore the natural heir, isn't he?

However, before the Red Wedding, Robb had named Jon Snow to be the heir of Winterfell. How much weight can be pressed behind this claim?

Altogether - who is the actual heir to Winterfell?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Well, it seems a safe bet that GRRM has based his world on a realistic European medieval setting so, as I recall, the legality of it was that the oldest trueborn son would be the usual heir. However, it was possible to disenfranchise (sp?) a heir by the current Lord naming one, so that would leave Jon Snow as the current heir of Winterfell.
Sansa/Ayra would only inherit if Bran & Rickon were dead and Jon would probably be disqualified thanks to his connection to the Night's Watch. At least, I presume that's why Littlefinger is so confident about it (as he is unaware of Bran/Rickon being alive).

Basically whoever has the better army usually has the better claim in disputed titles anyway

 

[Raven]

LF's belief is quite reasonable, since according to his information Sansa is the only legitimate child of Ned left alive. This makes her the heir as far as 90% of Westeros is concerned. There is the slight handicap of her being an accused regicide, but presumably LF has something in mind there.

Jon's claim is pretty weak. Robb's proclamation (assuming that it was what we think it was, a legitimisation and naming of Jon as heir, probably until such time as Robb himself had a son) only holds water with people who recognised Robb as a King.

Even amongst this limited group, some now have excellent reason to oppose his claim, having recanted Robb's authority in going over to the Lannisters or Stannis. So the only people who give a hoot about Robb's proclamation are those who still hold to the independence of the North and Riverlands, which might include the Blackfish, Maege Mormont and one or two others.

Also, the proclamation is limited to making Jon heir to Winterfell in the context of being heir to the King of the North and Riverlands title. He is not heir to Winterfell in the context of being heir to the title of Lord Stark.
If you follow me. The two things, crown and claim, are linked. He can't have the legitimacy without claiming the crown. So Jon is not in line for the Lordship at all. (Unless he takes Stannis' offer. )

Bran is the 'real' heir. But I doubt that he will ever claim it. He's thought to be dead, and I suspect he'll allow that to stand. (Assuming he survives the series.) Either he or Rickon would face some significant obstacles in proving their claim, even though it is better than Sansa's: they would first have to prove they were who they claimed to be. (And then survive long enough to claim the title.)

Don't forget Ramsay. His impending marriage to 'Arya' is designed to make him the de facto heir.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Either he or Rickon would face some significant obstacles in proving their claim, even though it is better than Sansa's: they would first have to prove they were who they claimed to be. (And then survive long enough to claim the title.)

That's a good point - who is there left alive who could recognise Bran outside of the Starks? With the household effectively slaughtered, I figure there aren't many who could.

 

[Boaz]

Meera and Jojen, nobles of House Reed, could vouch for Bran. But Osha, a pardoned wildling brigand is the only one to vouch for Rickon. On the other hand, Summer and Shaggy would be powerful witnesses to those who are paying attention.

Jon can make of Robb's proclaimation what he wants. But if the claim is not honored by the Iron Throne, then Jon may not be able to over come that hurdle. According to the Baratheon/Lannisters, Robb Stark was a rebel and his rulings were not legal or binding in any way.

I agree that the fake Arya is the only visible child of Eddard. If the Boltons and other northern houses accept her, it will be very difficult for Baelish to later produce Sansa. Who could vouch for Sansa's authenticity? Baelish is the only one. Brynden and Edmure can't. If Baelish does not produce Sansa before Ramsay marries fake Arya, then he's in for an uphill battle.

The full list of claimants to Winterfell (and their reasons for not coming forth) are Bran Stark (hiding), Rickon Stark (hiding), Jon Snow (Night's Watch), Sansa Lannister (hiding), Tyrion Lannister (escaped convict), Arya Stark (hiding), Ramsay Bolton, Benjen Stark (lost member of Night's Watch), and Robb's child (hiding or dead).

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I agree that the fake Arya is the only visible child of Eddard. If the Boltons and other northern houses accept her, it will be very difficult for Baelish to later produce Sansa. Who could vouch for Sansa's authenticity? Baelish is the only one. Brynden and Edmure can't. If Baelish does not produce Sansa before Ramsay marries fake Arya, then he's in for an uphill battle.

Don't forget that the consensus is that the fake Arya is Jeyne Poole, so Littlefinger would definately know she was fake. After all she produced her for the Boltons!
I can see a sticky end coming to the Bolton's care of some tender Littlefinger care. Remember Janos Slynt? Those who rise the swiftest normally meet the swiftest end! <cue evil laugh>

 

[Raven]

Brian: as Boaz says, the presence of a direwolf is a powerful testimonial to the identities of either child, plus they fit the physical descriptions well enough, and of course Bran is crippled and in company with Hodor who's pretty distinctive himself. Added to that, the Boltons hold several witnesses who could positively identify either child.

But then again I wouldn't give a ha'penny for any of those witnesses' chances of survival if they fail to 'correctly' identify fake Arya as the real thing. (Which is presumably what they've been kept around for, or at least one reason.)

Boaz: I suppose Ben is theoretically, a candidate, but being presumed dead and being a member of the NW rather take him out of the running. It's worth remembering that even Robb's and Stannis' proposals to get Jon out of the NW have never been put to the test. It remains uncertain that anybody can actually get either Jon or Ben out of their vows, and nobody is likely to bother to try to get Ben out of it!

Likewise, Robb's child is a theoretical and probably non-existent candidate, so the list seems a little too comprehensive.

 

[Boaz]

Well, normally I'd assume that everyone knows (including GRRM) about the complications for Ben and Robb's theoretical son, but since Martin has shown great ability to play havoc with plots... I included them.