Knight of Laughing Tree (from old post by Midnight)

[JohnSnow]

Thought this thread was interesting although from a while back. Sorry I didn't feel like retyping and removing the "all caps". Also in lieu of bumping the 7 page thread back to the top figured I would just start a new one.

MY PERSONAL VIEW OF THE LYANNA+RHAEGAR=JON*NOTE*TIMELINE IS DEBATIBLE.THIS IS A SERIES OF EVENTS THAT LEAD TO JON'S BIRTH.
#1-LYANNA AND ROBERT ARE PROMISED TO ONE ANOTHER.ROBERT FALLS IN LOVE WITH THE "IDEA" OF LYANNA RATHER THAN LYANNA HERSELF.
#2-LYANNA ACCOMPANIES HER FATHER AND TWO BROTHERS TO THE TOURNEY AT HARRENHALL (FULL ACCOUNT OF THIS TOURNEY AS TOLD TO BRAN BY MEERA ON PGS 337-343 ASOS).BRIEFLY THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS.LYANNA DEFENDS A CRANNOGMAN THAT IS BEING PICKED ON BY 3 SQUIRES.SHE THEN INTRODUCES THIS CRANNOGMAN TO HER TWO BROTHERS.NED AND BRANDON OFFER THE CANNOGMAN SOME ARMOUR TO DEFEND HIS HONOUR AGAINST THE 3 SQUIRES IN THE TOURNEY.HE REFUSES AS HE HAS NO SKILL AT FIGHTING. HE THEN PRAYS TO THE GREENMEN FOR MAGICAL INTERVENTION.THE NEXT DAY A MYSTERY KNIGHT APPEARS AT THE TOURNEY,THAT IS SMALL IN STRUCTURE AND IN MISMATCHED ARMOUR.THIS MYSTERY KNIGHT CHALLANGES THE KNIGHTS TO WHOM THE 3 SQUIRES BELONG TO AND DEFEATS THEM.MYSTERY KNIGHT THEN DISAPPEARS.AERYS SENDS HIS SON RHAEGAR TO KILL THE MYSTERY KNIGHT(WHICH I BELIEVE IS LYANNA SINCE NED RECALLS THAT LYANNA IS CAPABLE WITH A SWORD WHEN HE DEBATING ALLOWING ARYA TO KEEP NEEDLE).RHAEGAR RETURNS TO AERYS WITH ONLY THE MYSTERY KNIGHTS ARMOUR.RHAEGAR THEN GOES ON TO WIN THE TOURNEY AND CROWN LYANNA QUEEN OF LOVE AND BEAUTY.
#3-LYANNA AND RHAEGAR FALL IN LOVE WHEN RHAEGAR FINDS OUT THAT SHE IS THE MYSTER KNIGHT(OF THE LAUGHING TREE).
#4-LYANNA RUNS OFF WITH RHAEGAR AND MAKE....JON.THEY NOW HAVE GONE PAST THE POINT OF NO RETURN.IT WOULD BE CONSIDERED VERY DISHONORABLE TO RETURN TO ROBERT AT THIS POINT NOT TO MENTION ELIA.
#5-BRANDON STARK AND FATHER HEAD TO KINGS LANDING TO DRAG THEIR WAYWARD DAUGHTER/SISTER HOME.ONLY TO BE INTERCEPTED BY MADD KING AERYS WHO HAS THEM EXECUTED FOR TREASON(AERYS WOULD BE MORE THAN A LITTLE CONCERNED AS TO WHAT THE STARKS WOULD HAVE PLANNED FO RHAEGAR WHO DISHONORED THEIR DAUGHTER).
#6-ROBERT BARATHEON LEARNS OF LYANNA AND RHAEGAR AND ASSUMES THAT HIS "SO CALLED" BELOVED WOULD NEVER RUN OFF ON HIM,SO NATURALLY DRAWS THE CONCLUSION THAT SHE WAS STOLEN AND RAPED.
#7-HOUSES THAT ARE ALREADY STRESSED ABOUT A LUNATIC KING REACH THEIR BREAKING POINTS AND WAR ERRUPTS.
#8-RHAEGAR,AFRAID THAT HE IS ABOUT TO LOOSE LYANNA SECURES HER IN THE MOUNTAINS OF DOURNE WITH A NUMBER OF KINGS GUARD.HE THEN RETURNS TO DEAL WITH ROBERT ,THE MAN WHO WOULD TAKE LYANNA FROM HIM AND POSSABLY DESTROY THEIR UNBORN CHILD.
#9-NED OVIOUSLLY JOINS THE WAR TO BE RID OF KING AERYS .TARGARYENS KILLED HIS BROTHER AND FATHER AS WELL AS DISHONERED HIS SISTER.
#10-NED DEFEATS THE KINGSGUARD HIDING LYANNA.ONLY TO DISCOVER HER DYING GIVING BIRTH TO JON.
#11-LYANNA MAKES NED SWEAR TO PROTECT JON FROM ROBERT WHO WOULD MOST LIKELY MURDER HIM.ETC.ETC.ETC.

I AM A LITTLE LONG WINDED

link: http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/4669-spoiler-knight-of-the-laughingtree-jon.html

The funny thing from the original thread is the main argument is based on Lyanna's ability to use a sword. Considering we know practically nothing about her, that seems a weak argument.

Also, who is to say if Bran possesses the warg or shapechanging ability, could Lyanna possibly have had it also?

Just a very interesting theory to go along with the Jon Snow thread below.

Sorry if re-hashing this for us semi-newbies ticks anybody off.

snow

 

[Raven]

One of the very few things we do know about Lyanna - and something GRRM goes out of his way to tell us - is that she wanted to carry a sword, and in the KotLT story we are shown explicitly that she is good enough with one to drive off three squires with a practise sword. That seems pretty strong to me, in relative terms anyway.

OTOH, there's nothing to suggest that Lyanna could warg. It seems pretty unlikely warging is relevant though... if your suggestion is that Lyanna warged into someone else to make them act as the KotLT, a lot of the detail about the KotLT becomes superfluous, and there is no reason why Rhaegar would have connected her with the KotLT in that case.

 

[JohnSnow]

Good points, I guess I was suggesting that, not so much Lyanna warged into another person, but into a different shape possibly. It is a fantasy novel!

I just thought this theory was fairly sound and would be interesting to see what others think now after reading aFfC (not that it dealt with the very much).

If there was not some magical intervention where did the armor for the KoLT come from. Not arguing, just curious?

I just can't wait for aDwD becuase most of the stories I am insterested in deal with the other half of the kingdom.

snow

 

[Raven]

John: well, the armour is described as being made up of bits and pieces, presumably it was scrounged up by someone who didn't have armour...

 

[JohnSnow]

I am almost to that part in re-reading the series. I am anxiously awaiting picking that section apart and assimilitaing the facts of Meera's story.

THanks for the info,

snow

 

[Culhwch]

and in the KotLT story we are shown explicitly that she is good enough with one to drive off three squires with a practise sword.

Well, I've argued against this evidence before. She beat off three unarmed, unsuspecting squires with what I believe was a tourney sword. Not exactly the makings of a dominant warrior. I can't accept that as proof she could beat three fully-trained knights in a joust. I know the arguments will come back that Howland would seem to be equally unable to do this, but in the end, I feel that the story only makes sense when the Knight of the Laughing Tree is Howland.

 

[Raven]

Gee, you're going to be disappointed then, Culhwch.

Dramatically, the story makes sense when the KotLT is Lyanna and not much sense at all when it's Howland.

Lyanna = KotLT explains much concerning Rhaegar's actions in awarding her the crown. If he did so to acknowledge her as the 'real' champion without blowing her cover, that makes much more sense than Rhaegar choosing to humiliate his wife in public over someone he's passed barely two words to. And it also explains why he might have fallen in love with her, for her courage and spirit rather than her beauty alone. It also explains why the Reed kids are struck by the fact that Bran has never heard the story and consider this odd. Finally it explains why George makes mention of Lyanna's riding and fighting ability more than once and draws parallels between her and Arya.

OTOH, if Howland = KotLT then these things make less sense. The story would not be expected to have any special resonance to Bran and Rhaegar's actions in awarding the crown to Lyanna remain unexplained. And the whole story has very little actual relevance if it's Howland: it's just a story that happens to contain some interesting details but ultimately serves no dramatic purpose.

And all that without mentioning Howland's lack of ability.

 

[Culhwch]

Sure, those are all good, even valid, points, but, um, ah....

Damn. Gotta learn to stop challenging Raven.

One point, though, that remains unexplained: How does young Rhaegar come to know the mystery kinght's true identity?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

One point, though, that remains unexplained: How does young Rhaegar come to know the mystery kinght's true identity?

I guess that he follows him after he leaves (perhaps to offer him a place in his household guard? Ned tries something similar with the archery winner in his tourney) and discovers that he is a she - and a rather stunning she at that!

 

[JohnSnow]

I guess that he follows him after he leaves (perhaps to offer him a place in his household guard? Ned tries something similar with the archery winner in his tourney) and discovers that he is a she - and a rather stunning she at that!

That is a nice parrallel there WS. I always imagine Rheagar sneaking up on Lyanna whilst removing her armor, and Lyanna unable to run away just stands up to him and that makes him fall for her even more. Who knows, if the timeline is right, that might be where ole Jonny boy is conceived!

Hey Cullwch, does anyone challenge Raven and come away unscathed??!!

snow

 

[Raven]

Culhwch: well, IIRC (and despite the flattery from others: I often don't ) Aerys sets his son the task of finding the KotLT (as well as issuing a general offer of reward) after he declares the KotLT his enemy.

(The really interesting unanswered question is why he made that declaration? Sure, Aerys was paranoid by this time, but why pick on a mystery knight who apparently only sought to teach some squires chivalry? Was one of the three defeated knights a key Aerys ally? Or was there a political subtext to what the KotLT did?)

Anyway, presumably Rhaegar succeeded.

 

[rudycrab]

Well I am not trying to challenge Raven but it would seem that the story would have resonance with Bran even if the KoLT was Howland. See Howland, who has no chance of fighting knight-stlye to win a tourney, prays to the children of the forest ( I think?) that he fight like a knight for one day and his prayer is answered. Bran, who has always wanted to be a knight and spends alot of time thinking about the children and their magic, would find this story very intersting and it would increase his desire to go with Meera and Jojen to find Howland. Although this isn't as dramatic and revealing as Lyanna, it still seems possible.

 

[Raven]

True, rudy, and that might give the story some significance later on and so give it purpose in the story. But I think 'resonance' might have been the wrong word for what I'm getting at: what I mean there is that the Reed kids seem to expect the story to have some significance to Bran.

It's actually quite funny to read, because they are telling him this story which they seem to think should resonate deeply with him but he's just listening to it, totally oblivious as to who it's about.

 

[Culhwch]

It's actually quite funny to read, because they are telling him this story which they seem to think should resonate deeply with him but he's just listening to it, totally oblivious as to who it's about.

That's a part of that scene that I don't like so much. Bran isn't an idiot, and he seems familiar with his immediate family history - as his trips in the crypts show - but he doesn't work out who the 'angry wolf', 'quiet wolf', 'she wolf' and 'young wolf' are. I find this a bit of a stretch....

 

[Raven]

Cul: I think it's purely context. Bran is not expecting a family history lesson, he's expecting a fantastic tale.

Another contributory factor, and an interesting side note, is that the story is about a crannogman, and Bran evidently knows nothing about Howland and so doesn't make the connection. From there, it's natural that he also doesn't get what follows, and assumes the whole thing is just a crannog story.

Why does Bran know nothing about one of his father's closest friends? (None of the rest of the children know much either.) We can only conclude that Ned never talks of him. And that would most likely be for the same reason he never talks of Lyanna: he fears provoking questions about that time.

 

[Culhwch]

True enough, Raven. But it still seems a little unlikely to me. As I said, I recall Bran telling (I think) Osha about Brandon and Lyanna when Luwin takes him down to the crypts when he has his dream about Ned dying, so it would seem like he knows a little of his aunt and uncle, if not of his father's friends. And he knew of the tourney at Harrenhal, didn't he? So surely he could be expected to realise it wasn't a purely fictive story.

I don't know, I'd just expect it to at least tweak the thought in his mind it was more than just another story....

 

[Raven]

Yeah, but that's what's funny about it, Cul: he totally should get it but he's oblivious.

Maybe it's only funny to me.

 

[Boaz]

Bran, imo, is not that clever. Bran never reads or spends time understanding his family history, he only wants Nan's old fairy tales.

Now I have an observation regarding the subject of the OP. According to the pasted R+L=J when L=KOTLT, it seems that the Starks added significantly to Aerys' paranoia. If Lyanna did run off with Rhaegar and Aerys thought Rhaegar would put Elia aside, then it might appear as a major political move by the Starks. Rhaegar's heir would be half Stark, Rhaegar might appoint Rickard or Brandon as Hand, perhaps Ned or Ben would have joined the Kingsguard, and with Brandon wedded to Catelyn Tully... well, the Starks would have surpassed the Lannisters, Arryns, Martells, Baratheons, and Tyrells in power and influence. Could Aerys tell the difference between Rickard ordering Lyanna to seduce Rhaegar and Lyanna falling for Rhaegar on her own? Either way the result is the same... Stark domination of the court. I'm not saying that the Starks brought death upon themselves, but it would appear so to the Mad King.

Edited for spelling.

 

[Culhwch]

Now I have an observation regarding the subject of the OP. According to the pasted R+L=J when L=KOTLT, it seems that the Starks added significantly to Aerys' paranoia. If Lyanna did run off with Rhaegar and Aerys thought Rhaegar would put Elia aside, then it might appear as a major political move by the Starks. Rhaegar's heir would be half Stark, Rhaegar might appoint Rickard or Brandon as Hand, perhaps Ned or Ben would have joined the Kingsguard, and with Brandon wedded to Catelyn Tully... well, the Starks would have surpassed the Lannisters, Arryns, Martells, Baratheons, and Tyrells in power and influence. Could Aerys tell the difference between Rickard ordering Lyanna to seduce Rhaegar and Lyanna falling for Rhaegar on her own? Either way the result is the same... Stark domination of the court. I'm not saying that the Starks brought death upon themselves, but it would appear so to the Mad King.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. I like your thinking, Boaz.

 

[JohnSnow]

yeah good stuff Boaz...insert sound old machinery grinding to life as my brain tries to comprehend.

How long before he finishes this series. Damn I need a deep 6 year cryogenic sleep or something.

Of course we are all going to be PO'd if Martin just blows by all of this and never resolves it!!!!