John Marco

Rosemary

The Wicked Sword Maiden
Joined
Jun 14, 2005
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Tyrants and Kings Trilogy
1. The Jackel of Nor
2. The Grand Design
3. Saints of the Sword

I know this is an old trilogy but I do have the chance of getting them for a very good price.

Has anyone read this trilogy and if so did you like the trilogy and John Marco's style of writing?
 
Thank you Rune... 1999 for the first trilogy, thought it was a lot older than that! Still at AU$5.00 it certainly won't hurt to try them...:)
 
Im sure Ive seen this author in my library, I'll have to him out and try his books. Well actually add him to my ever growing list of library requests :D
 
Almost everynight someone mentions a book that I haven't read and it sounds like a good read. I think everyone here must have a list of 'books to read' a mile long..:D
 
I haven't read any of them myself, but I own the Jackal of Nar - its supposed to be one of the better epic fantasy series around, not on the top tier (Martin, Bakker, Erikson etc) but not far off, with a dark, gritty, militaristic tone. If you can get them all for $5.00 though, it's probably worth trying them out.
 
Well I've answered questions about this author before so here's an extract from a previous post.

I know you like magic Rosemary but you're not really going to get a lot in these books they're more along the liners of military fantasy set in an almost urban industrial style world at least as far as the main city goes.

Well I've read everything by John Marco but his original series Tyrants and Kings is his best. It's certain military fantasy and has a certain hardness to it but whilst I would describe it as an above average read I wouldn't say I enjoyed it as much as authors such as Martin, Erikson or Kearney. It's good but not brilliant and has some nice twists in the tail.

The newer series Eyes of God whilst it grapples with certain moral issues and contains some grey characters it is written in a fairly simplistic way and I thought it was and still is a pretty average read overall. The storyline itself is fairly standard fare although it does try to deal with specific moral issues, so credit where it's due. Critics seem to be suggesting Marco has improved as a writer and as far as the prose and plot construction goes perhaps they're right but for me the gritty realism of his original trilogy is somehow lost here in a story dripping with oversentimentality. Looks like his hard-edged approach has been sandpapered down somewhat.
 
For 5 bucks it's a steal, Rosemary. And if you decide you don't like 'em, they will make an excellent gift! :)
-g-
 
I was sure you had written about Marco & his books Gollum but was unable to find your article. Thank you for digging it out for me though, much appreciated. :D

You're right Hedgeknight, they would make an ideal present. Now I wonder who would like an epic military fantasy trilogy for their bookcase? :D
 
Well folks I was visiting a bookshop only 10 KM or so away from the local area for the first time. It's part of an old style area complete with antique shops and so forth. Anyway this bookshop has some interesting books I've not seen in other shops, apparently they import directly from other countries.

Anyway to get to the point I was innocently perusing the bookshelves (....;) ) and just happened to spot the new TPB edition of the next book in John Marco's current Eyes Of God series. As I've posted previously it's nowhere near as good as his original Tyrants and Kings trilogy but I don't mind the books too much as they do deal with certain moral ambiguities in the main charaters and I've read the first 2 so I'm interested enough to find out what happens. This third book is called Sword Of Angels and weighs in at a hefty doorstep size of approx 800 pages (2.5 inches in thickness) so it might just keep me busy for a few days...:D

New series so far:
Eyes Of God
Devil's Armour
Sword Of Angels
 
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These books were good, although the first was definitely the best. The setting is a bit remiscennt of Moorcock's Hawkmoon, if that tells you anything.
 
GOLLUM said:
Anyway to get to the point I was innocently perusing the bookshelves (....;) ) This third book is called Sword Of Angels and weighs in at a hefty doorstep size of approx 800 pages (2.5 inches in thickness) so it might just keep me busy for a few days...:D

Innocently? :D Well I do hope you enjoy it Precioussss.

Actually I quite liked some of Moorcocks books DG, although not sure now, after such a long time which ones they were. :)
 
Rosemary said:
Innocently? :D Well I do hope you enjoy it Precioussss.
Actually it's better than I thought it would be. I suspect you'ld enjoy this current series more than the original T&K Rosemary. I might bring the book along for Show and Tell in tow with the T.S. books you leant me.

See you soon....:D
 
GOLLUM said:
I assume DG is referring to the original Tyrants and Knigs series here?

Yes that's the one. I haven't read anything else by Marco.
 
Just completed Sword Of Angels, 800 plus pages a big read.

It was reasonable w/o being spectacular but better than I expected going on the first 2 books in this current series.

Of course Tyrants and Kings is Marco's original and best work by far.
 
Marco is a pretty cool guy. If you email him he will email back with in a couple of days. Good Stuff.
 
I'm reading the Jackal of Nar at the moment. It's a very irritating type of book - it's almost good, but Marco seems to have this masochistic tendency when writing, making the novel pretty awful at times.

There are some real problems - he has no knowledge of military tactics whatsoever, yet he's writing an epic/militaristic fantasy. That isn't a good start, but despite that, his battle scenes are the best ones.
His characterisation is almost uniformly terrible - admittedly, Tharn isn't badly done, and there are a couple of archetypes in there that work, but overall, it's not good. The characterisation borders on misogyny at times, but I think that's entirely unintention and simply a result of bad, lazy writing. But the way most characters act is entirely unrealistic - Richius falls in love at first sight with someone who hates him, but then suddenly loves him after a year.

Then there are the inconsistencies - he states that a certain child (just a few days old) is Richius', yet in the chapter or so before he clearly states that the last time he saw the woman was more than a year ago. There are lots of little incidents like these which are really off-putting. Other parts are just irritating in how unlikely they are - only 3000 people live in a major city? And then every single one is slaughtered? The numbers on the whole are pretty unrealistic - they're much too low, but then his world is tiny as well - he states it takes 3 days to ride from the Dring valley where they were fighting to the city Ackle-Nye - based on the map in the front, that makes the entire continent about 12 days ride from one end to the other. So the entire continent, and we can extrapolate, the world, isn't much bigger than Great Britain. Okay...

The prose itself isn't awful, but it's not special either - there have been a couple of good sections, but on the whole it's mediocre. The dialogue is pretty badly done - full of anachronisms, and almost everyone speaks in exactly the same way - all of the Narens preface a lot of what they say with "Lord", and the same is done with the Drol but with the names of their gods.

The most annoying thing is that the novel is fundamentally flawed, but has some very good parts to it. He is willing to kill off some of his characters, and to do things that would normally be unpredictable - but the problem is he sets them up in a really bad way. 1. It becomes entirely obvious what he's going to do, and the shock value is negated. 2. He makes the characters act in ridiculous ways to achieve this.
It's also full of padding - at half the length it would be twice as good. There are a lot of things he writes which make it obviously worse - he highlights his own flaws. eg Dyana, a Triin, starts teaching Richius some of the Triin language at about page 600. The problem? It made me realise - how did they ever communicate before? Dyana didn't learn the Naren language, and Richius didn't learn the Triin language, and they didn't have interpreters either. This is just laziness in writing.

It's far from the worst I've read in epic fantasy, but in all honesty I can't say it's anything much better than some of Feist's weaker novels. It has some potential and the ideas weren't bad, but Marco's technical skill as a writer is completely lacking and almost ruins the novel. It certainly isn't a Martin, Erikson, Bakker or Kay though, and I'm afraid to say that it isn't even close to Keyes, Kearney or Jones either. Marco just about has the ideas - but he often gives up on them to go and pursue common fantasy cliches, and the good ideas he does use tend to be ruined by poor writing.

Of course Tyrants and Kings is Marco's original and best work by far.

That's scary, because it's hardly a stunning series, at least from the first book. Sure, Marco is a better writer than Eddings and Jordan. But the worrying thing is the margin isn't that great, and being better than Eddings shouldn't be a challenge.
 
Brys said:
That's scary, because it's hardly a stunning series, at least from the first book. Sure, Marco is a better writer than Eddings and Jordan. But the worrying thing is the margin isn't that great, and being better than Eddings shouldn't be a challenge.
I agree it's not stunnning but still a better than average read and preferrered to Eddings and Jordan by this reader. I can't remember if Book 1 covers the machinations going on in the main city or not as I didn't mind the "industrial" aspects and political uncurrents Marco trys to paint. It was one of the few military style fantasy books I'ld read at the time which is probably why it made an impression on me. Not a patch on Erikson or Kearney though. I still think that trilogy is worth reading though and from memory it improves in the latter books.

The current series is nothing great and in fact despite some attempts at examining charaters in moral conflict and the fact that the story flows better, pretty lame compared to Tryants and Kings. In fact don't fall of your chair when I say this but large parts of these books (current series) remind me of Eddings.

My advice to you for what it's worth would be to persist with the current trilogy but don't bother with the latest series.
 

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