Submissions - How big should 3 chapters be?

[Paradox 99]

A question to those of you in the know...
Many publishers/agents ask for a writer to send in the first 3 chapters of their work. When they ask for this, do they have a particular size in mind? If the chapters are too long, I imagine it could be a heavy temptation for the sluch pile.
My chapters tend to be around the 4 to 5000 word mark. Is that an acceptable amount or a bit too heavy? Or doesn't it really matter?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

There is no hard and fast rule about the length of chapters. 5000 words would be a longer-than-average chapter, so I suspect that an agent or editor who had specified 3 chapters might be less than enthusiastic about reading 15000 words. I don't know if they would refuse to look at the proposal on that account -- if you didn't catch their interest in the first few pages they wouldn't feel obligated to read that far, and if they did like what they saw enough to keep on reading, it's likely they would ask to see the rest anyway.

But agents and editors can be unpredictable. Some will jump on any little thing as "unprofessional" and the manuscript not worth their time because of it -- others will tell you that any agent/editor who would reject something on those same grounds is an idiot.

To be absolutely safe, you should probably send something a little shorter.

 

[Green]

I always wondered about this... my chapters are around the 7 - 10k word mark. Longer than normal, I know, but there you go.

But submitting work has always been a long way off, so I thought I'd worry about that somewhere down the line

 

[Paradox 99]

Thanks Kelpie,
sounds like good advice to me.
I run to a fairly strict formula with my chapters (not sure why I do that though). They tend to be in 3 section of around 1500 words, switching between different POV. I guess I could send in 1 chapter - in a way that could be seen as 3 I suppose.(starting to sound confusing now! )

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

7000-10000 word chapters is enormously long. Sooner or later, you'll probably want to find a way to divide them up into smaller, more managable portions, Green.

Paradox, something along the order of 50 pages (properly formatted, of course) would probably be about right. Divide it into three parts wherever it seems natural or artistic to do so, and there you are. When they say 3 chapters, they really only want a representative (but not too unwieldy) sample of your writing, but there's also an element of "how well does this person follow reasonable directions/how easy will he or she be to work with."

But far more important than any of this is the synopsis. From what I have learned from other writers, careers may rise and fall on the ability to write an engaging synopsis. Metaphorically speaking, it's like a resume and an aptitude test combined, and if you don't do well there you'll never get a chance to dazzle them with the literary equivalent of a great interview.

 

[Paradox 99]

But far more important than any of this is the synopsis.

Ah yes, the dreaded synopsis! I'm still trying to put a good one together for my latest novel. It's quite a complex plot and it's very difficult to decide what's important to leave in and what isn't.
It's a mammoth task to fit 200,000 words into a single page. You spend all that time building up characters, suspense, setting the pieces of the puzzle in the right place for some good twists and then you've got to stuff it into one little lump.
And I suppose they also want the synopsis in the same double-spaced courier styke format too.

Can you provide any links for some good synopsis examples for complicated novels?

 

[Green]

7000-10000 word chapters is enormously long. Sooner or later, you'll probably want to find a way to divide them up into smaller, more managable portions, Green.

Maybe, but maybe not. There's nothing inherently wrong with a 10k word chapter - a lot of authors have long chapters. Since I have a copy of Memories of Ice on my computer, I know that Steven Erikson's chapters are frequently up around the 7, 8, 9, 10k mark. I wouldn't be surprised if people like Peter F. Hamilton and Robert Jordan didn't have chapters approaching 10k words, either.

I wouldn't change them just out of fear of a dreaded word count - most of my chapters are pretty well balanced, and are the length they are for a reason. The ones that aren't, well, they will get sorted out eventually.

But, you know, maybe. Submissions and things like that are a long way down the line for me, so I don't really think about that much any more. I've got about 3k words to finish on Chapter 10, and then I'll be about half way through the book (up to about 95k words so far, though this will fall during the second draft). It's taken me about 18 months to get this far, so the end is a little way off, yet I'll just have to see what feedback I get, if any.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think a point worth bearing in mind with chapter submissions, is that an agent/publisher will possibly reject the entire manuscript after only a couple of paragraphs, if that.

My understanding is that they're not looking for story - they're looking to see if you can actually write and whether that writing holds their attention - and if you can hold up a high standard for 3 chapters, then just maybe, you're worth looking at further.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Authors who have already been published and sold hundreds of thousands of books can get away with things that you and I, Green, had better not contemplate just yet.

Even a humble individual like myself, submitting to an editor who has already published one of my books, has a bit more leeway than someone trying to make a good first impression on an agent or editor who has never heard his or her name before.

And what you submit and what eventually gets published are two different things as well. If an agent asks for three sample chapters, I think it's a safe bet they aren't looking for 30,000 words.

Paradox, not everyone asking for a synopsis wants the same length. Most agents either ask for one page or three pages -- but then there are the mavericks like my agent who asks for two. Most agents want double-spaced, but some who ask for only one page want single-spaced, with blank lines between the paragraphs. Find out what the individual or the agency wants before you submit to them -- you'll probably need every single word they'll allow.

Brian probably has some great links under the Resources heading. But keep in mind that often an online sample synopsis is NOT the synopsis for that writer's first book. So what I said to Green up above may apply.

But here is the thing, and after that I'm going to shut up: No reasonable agent or editor is going to reject your proposal because of one little thing that you do. (Of course they all have different ideas about what constitutes a tiny mistake and what they regard as a damning sign of unprofessionalism.) They WILL reject a manuscript or a proposal for a series of small things, particularly if those come before they get a chance to read the best parts of what you've submitted.

Some of these things you can't predict in advance. They may hate the title of your book because it's too cliche (or not cliche enough). Yours may be the fourth book with a similar premise they've looked at that week, and all the others were horrible, so that their first response is, "Oh my god, here we go again." The edition of Writers Market that you consulted may have garbled their name, so you've naturally repeated that mistake in your cover letter. (This actually happened to me, and while I don't say that this was the only reason the ms. came back with a form rejection, it could hardly have counted in my favor.)

If you start out with one or two strikes against you that could have been avoided, these may add up, along with the things that you can't predict, to an early rejection. If you think that the way you have your chapters divided up is so important that it's worth taking that risk, it's up to you. You may even be right. But wouldn't it be a pity if they stopped reading a page too soon -- just before they reached that killer scene that would have inevitably sold the book -- only because you decided to be inflexible where it wouldn't have really hurt the story to make some adjustments?

These are the things that each writer has to weigh and consider, and decide for him or herself. It's just better to know what may be at stake before you start that process.

 

[Green]

I'm not arguing the point of how long submissions should be. I'm just saying that there's nothing wrong with long chapters from a reader's (or a writer's) point of view.

Sure, getting something published is another kettle of fish, but that's just a sad by-product of how it all works. I wouldn't submit 30k words for consideration.

When I read a book though, I don't allow the author leeway just because it's their second, third or four hundredth book. If it's good, it's good. If not, then forget it. But I understand the point you're making.

 

[the_faery_queen]

my chapters are 10k and mine got accepted for publication. ok it was a small print place who wanted to see the whole thing in one go, and not bits, but its true, they want to see the synopsis first and formost. if the idea sounds good they will read bits of the novel. not the whole three chapters. its mostly about giving them a sample, something they can have a look ati. personally, i never thought about it and would just send the three chapters, long though they are! if in doubt, you could always email them (if they have an email address) but i would just send the long three chapters. i already resigned myself to high stamp bills

 

[Paradox 99]

Kelpie/Brian/Faery,
Thanks again for the advice - all makes perfect sense. I'm just in the process of finishing off the second draft before having another stab at my synopsis (I'm trying for 3 different lengths so that I can be ready with whatever they ask for!).
I'll let you know how I get on.

 

[Marky Lazer]

Interesting questions, Para, never thought about it. Though, I don't need to worry with my chapters between 1,500 and 2,200 word chapters

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Since Paradox was asking about agents as well as editors, I assumed (perhaps mistakenly) a plan to submit first to one of the larger publishing houses, faery_queen, and based my answer on that. Some of the smaller houses operate pretty much the same way, only on a smaller scale. Others are willing to do more work with new authors to help shape their manuscript into what they want. Some are more willing to take chances with unconventional approaches. And then there are those that are essentially vanity presses, repackaged to look like legitimate publishers. Because of these variations, it's harder to give advice on what an editor at a small press might find acceptable -- unless one happens to be personally familiar with the house and the editor specifically.

 

[Paradox 99]

Oh, and one other thing. I've decided now that a prologue will be appropriate. Where does that fit into the submission process usually? Does it count as one of the three chapters or should it be disregarded?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

That would depend on the length. If it's only a few pages, I think you could safely treat it as an extra-long epigraph at the beginning of Chapter One -- include it but don't count it. If it's chapter-length, count it as a chapter.

If the question really troubles you and the prologue is not terribly important to understanding or appreciation of the first three chapters, you could leave it out. Agents and editors do want the first part of the book, not just the good bits later on, but prologues are the kind of thing that tend to appear and/or disappear during the writing and revision process, so you could pretend it doesn't exist yet. If you're still rewriting while waiting for a response, it might not exist anymore, by the time they see the whole manuscript.

 

[Paradox 99]

Thanks Kelpie. That's answered my question.
I'm adding the prologue to provide a platform for the first chapter and to reveal something of the type of world that the characters are living in, so I believe that would class as a good enough reason to include it in the submission.