Matrix Reloaded (2003)

[cersei]

Choice and Free will

I think there seems to be 2 constants in the Machine World...

1) Machines do not lie. (check everything Architect and Oracle says...none can be proven to have lied)

2) Choice or Free Will is important for Machines to grant humans in order for it all to work

I used to wonder why did the Architect show Neo Trinity dying...but I realise it is precisely because he tires to persuade Neo to return to the Source since Trinity is about to die and in fact will die and nothing he can do to change that (which is NOT a lie since he could not stop her dying despite taking out the bullet but rather has to ressurect her instead). If he did now show him this then the decision to return to the Matrix is easy for Neo since he can be with Trinity....but by persuading Neo that trinity is dead, he may return to Source door instead ....which failed of course since human's greatest strength and weakness is Hope..

 

[Dave]

Nice insights on the number 23 and the names, Cersei. Welcome to the board, and your nice comment about our "intelligent" discussion.

I'm sure that the numbers and names are important clues to the plot, because they were in 'The Matrix' too -- Morpheus being the God of Dreams, Neo being an anagram of One, etc.

On the Architect "Please" quote, I just thought he wanted Neo to stop interrupting him, though I'd have to watch it again to be sure. Since I've only seen it once, rather than the three times some people have (is that four times now???) I'll have to give way to your better memories.

 

[dbuckingham]

.http://www.geekroar.com/film/archives/000256.php

A good site worth looking at, in particular it has the transcript for the Neo / Architect discussion. There are also a lot of other good posts up there. Might be helpful for some people.

Dan.

 

[Thulium]

I specifically went into a second viewing to pay close attention to everything The Architect had to say and I think I figured out some things...

"The One" (Neo) is the consummation of The Anomoly inherent in the Oracle's version of The Matrix. Neo is not simply a threat to the Machines, he is an integral part of the Matrix. The Matrix can ONLY be reloaded by reinserting the One. I suspect that at least a part of "the kernel" is embedded in Neo in the same or a similar was as virus Smith is embedded into Bane. I THINK that explains Neo's ability to affect the machines in the "Real" world.

This begs the question, "what is the nature of the Anomoly?" The most obvious theme is Choice/Free Will, but also we have issues of Hope and Love. (Faith, Hope, and Love....hm...

The fascinating issue to me is that the Architect has an understanding that the Anomoly is not simply a bug that needs to eliminated. Although the Machines might fear that the Anomoly threatens The Matrix, the Architect and the Oracle know that the Anomoly is crucial to the Matrix' continued operation!

If my assumptions are correct, it explains why the Architect didn't make a greater attempt to persuade Neo to enter the source: The Anomoly, and hence The Matrix, hinges on a choice...the code would be in error and wouldn't work right if the Anomoly wasn't inserted...and the Anomoly is Choice. Ergo, Neo MUST make the choice in order for it to work.

The previous anomolies had been successfully guided into making the "correct" choice, but Neo and Trinity, to quote the Oracle, "had already made their choice". Which reminds me of another interesting point, the fact that Oracle actually recognized the aspects of Choice and Love in determining The One...and she knew that Trinity's choice and Love were also important to The One. So really, Neo is the ultimate fulfillment of all the previous Anomolies!

It's an amazing paradox! ....I love it!!!

Where does that leave us for Revolutions? Well, the future is now completely uncertain. (Although, I think we're expecting a HAPPY ending...) Things look bleak for Zion, and The Matrix itself is likely to be getting pretty unstable soon... So all out war is basically inevitable. The machines definately have a clear numeric advantage. But there are some unknowns: 1) Morpheus, Neo and Trinity make an unpredictible...erm....trinity. 2) The future, as the Architect and the Oracle see it, is over, and the Oracle's true allegiance is questionable. 3) Neo apparently is developing some real world advantage over the machines. 4) Virus Smith (and perhaps some of the other rogue programs) is a nearly unknown variable... We know he's got a big grudge against Neo, but how big is his grudge against the other machines? 5) Bane/Smith is gonna present some problems of his own.

 

[stripes]

Thanks for the insights, it makes more sense! You had me convinced here cersei:

I used to wonder why did the Architect show Neo Trinity dying...but I realise it is precisely because he tires to persuade Neo to return to the Source since Trinity is about to die and in fact will die and nothing he can do to change that (which is NOT a lie since he could not stop her dying despite taking out the bullet but rather has to ressurect her instead). If he did now show him this then the decision to return to the Matrix is easy for Neo since he can be with Trinity....but by persuading Neo that trinity is dead, he may return to Source door instead ....which failed of course since human's greatest strength and weakness is Hope..

And added on that what Thylium says:

If my assumptions are correct, it explains why the Architect didn't make a greater attempt to persuade Neo to enter the source: The Anomoly, and hence The Matrix, hinges on a choice...the code would be in error and wouldn't work right if the Anomoly wasn't inserted...and the Anomoly is Choice. Ergo, Neo MUST make the choice in order for it to work.

I forget that this whole system works on choice, and the architech persuades Neo to make the appropriate choice which didn't work. This is my speculation based on this:

Neo may have unintentionally found a way to beat the Matrix , or the Architech wanted Neo to take that choice for his own benefit which I have no clue as of yet what.

If I had to pick, well, since Revolutions is the last installment, I would problably lean towards the former. Neo has made this choice, possibly a very good choice that will eventual lead to man kind's freedom, yet, as the Oracle already pointed out, he has to figure out why he made this choice in the first place(why will it free man kind? for instance).

 

[cersei]

"Please" .....what did this simple word mean?

I am not sure if the Architect says "Please" in response to Neo asking if he meant the Oracle as the Mother of the Matrix coz:

1) The very thought that The Oracle could be considered as the Mother of the Matrix is silly notion to the Architect

2) The name "Oracle" given to this simple guiding programme which does not really have any future-telling abilities is silly

3) He does not want Neo to keep interrupting him...in which case he has not confirmed nor deny if the Oracle is the Mother he is alluding to...

What other movie can you have such deep debates about a single word eh? hehe and in one action one with bullets/kung-fu/car chases too

 

[cersei]

CGI too well, CGI-ish

I think overall the CGI moments were too obviously CGI...hence the not so realistic feel to the movie...

All the actual fights in The Matrix you can feel the sweat and pain (who does not winch when Morpheus' head hits and breaks the toiler, depsite repeated viewings?)...for me, the only 2 good fights in Reloaded was in car between Morpheus and Twin in that confined space...and at end between Trinity and Agent which at least u can sense some of the impact and Trinity's increasing desperation...

All that being said, Reloaded is a intellectual clever film that uses its action to hide that from the Hollywood Exec (Joel "there is no bar - please shut me up" Silver included) and typical MTV movie goer

 

[Tabitha]

Re: CGI too well, CGI-ish

Originally posted by cersei
(Joel "there is no bar - please shut me up" Silver included)

Gakk, if I hear him spout that line one more time I am going to just bug out!!!! I know it isn't actually IN the film, but that is another of my Reloaded-related pet hates!

 

[pkgrl]

Welcome aboard, dbuckinham and cersei! :wave: Good to see more people in this discussion, too!

First, I think dbuckingham's right in dismissing collegues' theory that the other ship fired its EMP just when Neo stopped the machines. I think Neo did indeed stop them himself. In fact, when he says "something's different," I think he's demonstrating for us something that happened to him when he left the source. I think acting on his decision to save Trinity changed him.

And Tabitha:

did you all take notepads in or something?

As a matter of fact, I did. :blush:

doesnt the archetect say that the matrix will be destroyed if Neo goes back to it to save Trinity? If he did then why wasnt it destroyed?

No. As a matter of fact, the Architect said that Neo's failure to return to the source would result in a system-wide crash that would kill everyone connected to the Matrix, not destroy the Matrix itself. While this may be true (and are we assuming that, as a being of reason, the Architect only tells the truth?) it would take time for the crash and subsequent effects of it. (Did I mention that I taped a bit of it, too? :blush: )


Okay... now that I've finally caught up and read all the newer replies, I just have one thing to say:


You're blowing my "Neo fighting to become god" theory all to he[[! Good on ya!

Okay, I still have more to say. :blush: This is the first time I've heard a coherant explanation for how Zion and the "real" world could still be another layer of the Matrix:

a solution where the 1% humans whom would reject The Matrix can be placed into "Zion"...I believe this means a separate programme which though still plugged in, these "rebels" would make the "choice" (an artifical one as it seems, a theme in Reloaded) to be free...

Sounds likely to me. Thanks, cersei!

As for the Architect's "please," I always thought it sounded dismissive, like there's no way the Oracle could be the "mother" of the Matrix... but it made me sad and wonder if it was added in because Gloria Foster died before she could finish her part in Revolutions. It may be that the W bros had to scramble and rethink another "mother" of the Matrix, then added in the Architect's dismissive "please" later. Remember, Reloaded was originally going to be released last year, but the pick up shots lasted a lot longer due to Alleya's(sp?) death. Real life intrudes on the making of the Matrix, too.

As for the previous versions of the "One," I don't think that they looked like Neo at all. I think the images on the TV screens behind Neo and the Architect are all Neo... throughout his "childhood." They're images that Neo will recognize. Notice that many of them are images of what happened to him in the original movie. I think, especially if cersei is right and Neo is just another program, that his "look" changes every time as a way of trying to disguise itself from the Matrix. Why else would it have taken Morpheus and the others so much longer to find Neo? Remember that Morpheus told Neo that it was risky "freeing" Neo's mind at such a late time in his life because the mind has trouble "letting go" of the Matrix. Most minds that are going to be "freed" are so released at a younger age. Thus, the other "potentials" in the Oracle's apartment were all children.

And I tried to count the councel members, and it looked like 12, not 23.

P.S. If we're counting, I'm up to 6 viewings.

 

[cersei]

let me explain

Allow me to explain my views PKgrl (and great website and discussion thread by the way)....

IN each version of the Matrix, everyone from Zion is different since each batch is killed and another new 23 picked from previous Matrix is used to repopulate new Zion. So, in Matrix/Zion ver 1.0-5.0, there is not necessarily a Morpheus....by this I mean a Laurence Fishburne character as there may undountedly be different humans using that nickname (after all they are all Hacker nicks)..similiarly, no Trinity, no Lock etc...

This also resonates with Morpheus syaing that "throwaway" line about there being another whom could manipulate the Matrix and free the first of us ie Previous Neo whom freed the first 23)

However, Neo (and the Oracle) remains the same but since no one knows what The One (or Oracle for that matter until I presume she contacts someone to be "one whom finds the One" ie Morpheus as we know it in latest Matrix) looks like, they still have to find him.

Others like Merovingian and Persephone have been around because they are programmes which have figured out how to survive the reboot.

Those other Neo's in Architect's monitors from previous versions are all Neo (rather Keanu lookalike as we know it) and their different reactions to what Architect says (hence some saying, One? Two? Three? in response to previous Matrices)

BY this same rationale, it seems more sense Neo too is a programme....and ultimately one whom will turn out to sacrifice himself for humanity (sob sob)

In regards W Brothers adding "Please" to dismiss Oracle simply coz Gloria Foster passed away(we will surely miss her, rest in peace), I seriously doubt it. Everything has all been planned well in advance by those brothers. Anyway, I read that the Merovingian sends his henchmen to destroy the Oracle's "shell" (ie Gloria Foster look) as he did say to warn the fortune teller her time is up (he is fed up of thse repeated reloads and asking each Neo to come bug him for Keymaker?)...so this allows another actress to play the Oracle in next film..

 

[Tabitha]

Re: let me explain

Originally posted by cersei
so this allows another actress to play the Oracle in next film..

Yep, just gotta echo this - Dark Horizons posted a pic of the 'new' Oracle a day or two ago.

 

[pkgrl]

First, I gotta say that the Matrix must have set some kind of record for using the largest number of non-white actors. I was marveling at Zion's racial diversity just the other day.

As for the monitors, I still think they were all Neo version 6.0. I think the remarks he makes are things Neo himself might be thinking or might have said back when he was first freed. They are his human reactions.

So if Neo is a program, a "necessary systemic anomoly" like the Architect claims, that keeps occuring every time there's a new reboot, then wouldn't it want to survive, too? Why wouldn't it try to change every time? Wouldn't it try to disguise itself from the Matrix so it wouldn't have to go back to the source yet again? Neo seems to be learning... so doesn't that mean that every incarnation of him had to go through a period of learning, too? Why would a program that has some choice about it choose to be wiped ever hundred years (or so) instead of choosing to try and disguise itself to hide from the system that wants it to be rebooted? That's what I meant by each One not looking like this Neo.

I like the idea that he is actually a computer program, but then we have all those other programs (Agents, the Merovingian, and even the Architect), whom we're assuming tell the truth, all saying that he's human. So how do we reconcile this?

And I never thought that Morpheus' line about the "first" One was throw away. He was explaining to Neo the origin (as he understood it) of the first One, a story that he knew Neo needed to know or he wouldn't understand why they took the risk to free Neo so late in his life, which was dangerous.

 

[matrixfreak]

Originally posted by pkgrl
Good point, freak. And welcome to the board! :wave:

Thanks pkgrl! :wave:

Maybe he couldn't because Neo isn't completely sure what his purpose is: he still doesn't know WHY he's the One.

Hey, here's something else I remembered. During the Key Maker's story about the building that houses the "source", Neo has another vision, one in which the building itself seems to be infected, growing blemishes or tumors that knit together, then explode. The fact that these blemishes are the color of fire, and that Neo explodes out of the building in a blaze, is it simply a vision of what his action would do to the Matrix?

I think your on target here. Neo hadn't fullfilled his purpose as 'The One' (to reboot the Matrix). Since everything in the Matrix seems to be pre-ordained or pre-programmed if you will (Thus the oracles ability to know everything that will happen) perhaps Smith did not have the programming ability to 'overwrite' Neo because his fate has already been programmed by the Architect.

As for Neo's vision during the Keymakers monolouge, I think we were simply seeing the series of events that were already programmed to happen or it was forshadowing Neo's choice once he got to the 'source'.

This led me to another thought about the movie that I almost overlooked the first time I saw it. When Trin,Neo and Morpheus go to see the Merovingian, as they're walking up to him at his table, Neo looks to his left and sees someone being taken away and they used that little Matrix sound effect as to say 'This is important, remember it', but it goes by so fast I don't know if this was ever resolved by the end or if it's something for the next film. Anyone else notice this?

 

[Tabitha]

Originally posted by matrixfreak


This led me to another thought about the movie that I almost overlooked the first time I saw it. When Trin,Neo and Morpheus go to see the Merovingian, as they're walking up to him at his table, Neo looks to his left and sees someone being taken away and they used that little Matrix sound effect as to say 'This is important, remember it', but it goes by so fast I don't know if this was ever resolved by the end or if it's something for the next film. Anyone else notice this?

oh my god! I saw that! I completely forgot until you mentioned it. Neo and the man totally lock eyes and we hear that urgent theme.
Puzzling, I hope it has some relevance.

 

[zazie]

Hi! This is such a great discussion. Friends and I have been obsessing over so many questions about Matrix Reloaded for the past couple of days. A few people have asked about whether the W Brothers are religious. We came across this really interesting discussion about all of the books this one guy thinks that the W Brothers are referencing:
http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm
Thought you all might want to take a look if you haven't seen it.

 

[Dave]

Re: let me explain

Originally posted by pkgrl
I think the images on the TV screens behind Neo and the Architect are all Neo... throughout his "childhood." They're images that Neo will recognize. Notice that many of them are images of what happened to him in the original movie.

This was what I originally thought too, but after reading a lot of online discussion on Matrix Reloaded I have to say the general opinion seems to be that they were the earlier versions of the 'One'. Each Neo picture answers the Architects questions in a different way, and 'our' Neo hasn't heard these questions before.

I don't think that it actually says anywhere else in the film that the earlier versions of the 'One' were Neo lookalikes though, and unless he is an avatar, or a program himself, I don't see how they could be identical in appearance.

I'm not sure what to think now, but if pkgirl still thinks that after 6 viewings, how can I argue?

Originally posted by cersei
Others like Merovingian and Persephone have been around because they are programmes which have figured out how to survive the reboot.

That has got to be true, it seems like a perfect explanation of who and what they are. The Matrix seems to be a very disorderly place though -- a little like my PC -- full of old bits of files and programs that have pieces missing or corrupted.

 

[pkgrl]

Originally posted by matrixfreak
... Neo looks to his left and sees someone being taken away and they used that little Matrix sound effect as to say 'This is important, remember it', but it goes by so fast I don't know if this was ever resolved by the end or if it's something for the next film. Anyone else notice this?

Totally noticed that, but it just didn't seem important in this conversation. I think that will be taken care of in Revolutions.

Originally posted by Dave
Each Neo picture answers the Architects questions in a different way, and 'our' Neo hasn't heard these questions before.

My friend and I were just discussing this, too. She put it better than I did, so I'll paraphrase her. She said that they are all Neo 6.0 and that each answer represents a choice he might make in answer to the Architect. That's why, when he looks around at them the second time (and we "fly" into one screen only to reach the "real" Neo) he says, "Choice. The problem is choice."

Does that make it clearer? My thinking usually isn't too clear :crazy:, but hopefully you get the picture I'm trying to paint.

I was also thinking more about Persephone today and decided she fit the parameters of the "mother" of the Matrix that the Archtect gave us. She's more of an intuitive program, from an older version of the Matrix, and I think her original purpose was to "investigate certain aspects of the human psyche," ie. emotion. That's why she craves emotion now. She remembers what it feels like, but no longer has the opportunity to actually feel emotion (because her hubby has become such a power-monger), and she's certainly NOT bound by the constraints of perfection. What a mother, eh? :naughty:

 

[drdouglasp]

the matrix rocks...

Hello all,
i really like a lot of the ideas floating around out here.....

thought i would throw in a few of my own.

as i understand it, this is how the matrix works, when a person is plugged in and their body is a d-cell...
their mind becomes a part of the matrix and therefore is basically a program, one that the matrix controls.
so if the machines wanted you to be a lawyer, thats what you would be...

morphous, trinity and crew have realized that the matrix is controlling them, or was trying to. so they "woke up" and now see the matrix for what it is and have realized they can bend the rules.

neo's "program" is the anomoly and thats why he can minupliate the matrix. he understands that the boundries created by the matrix are **** and he can bend them, more so then others who have woken up... he is faster then agents, and can do things that even the programs can't.

so what i am wondering is why cant neo change the code more? or actually rewrite it? or add something to it?
could he clone himself like ex-agent smith? (crtl-c, crtl-v)

anyways...
maybe since ex-agent smith was "unplugged" and is more then an agent now, he has changed how it all works. he was able infect that guy and leave the matrix and is now somehow controlling the mind of that goatee guy.

maybe when ex-agent smith tried to infect neo, before the big brawl, neo's program got whatever it is that makes agent smith different, whatever it is that allows a program to leave the matrix...
so since neo picked that up, maybe neo's anomoly program left with neo into the real world.
Thus allowing neo to sense the senitenals at the end.
and giving him some weird electrical blast....

im still not sure if zion is another matrix or if it is the real world.
the architect said that 1% of people in the matrix reject it, even if it is sub-consiously. so that leads me to believe that the machines would want control over those 1%.... thus making another matrix, where humans beleive they are trying to save everyone from the 1st matrix.
but if that was true then shouldnt neo be able to see it?
he can see the code in the matrix, he sees everyone like green lines and see programs as glowing yellowish things.
anyways
another thought on there being 2 matrixs... matrixi... more then 1 matrix
is that fact that neo asked trinity to stay out while they went to see the architect, and she did.
but then that other ship got all jacked and everyone died.... so she HAD to go into the matrix to blow up the reserve power grid, so neo could get in the door...
and it all happened just like neo's dream.... (have you ever had a dream you thought was real....)

also if trinity wasn't in the matrix, fighting that agent and about to die... then neo wouldnt have a choice to make when he met the arichtect.

tell me what ya'll think
laters
dr

 

[deadboy]

neo's new abilities/the new oracle/enter the matrix

hello all...this topic is hella long, and you're all quite brilliantly dissecting this masterpiece film, so i won't trouble you long ... just some thoughts. if i am repeating someone else, i apologize; i kinda scimmed through a lot of those posts.

neo's new abilities:
in the original film, neo sent Smith into, basically, the recycle bin of the matrix, where he faced either deletion or exile. he chose exile. as he put it, and many of you have as well, he felt purpose, as if he obtained parts of neo into his own structure. is it not plausable then, that neo has also obtained parts of Smith as well, becoming more in tune with the actual archetecture of the matrix and thus the machines? when he EMP'd the sentinals at the end, i viewed that in a sense that neo has blurred the lines between the matrix and the real world, essentially because he has become part of both structures. of course, the immense drain that would have on the human mind and body has left him in a coma now, but i believe neo has shown that he now has some sort of control over the machines in the real world, much like he can bend the rules (if not break them) of the actual matrix.

...enough of that...
ENTER THE MATRIX game SPOILERS...

sadly, as you all know, the original actress whom played the oracle died in sept. 2001, before filming had completed for Revolutions. And, she has been replaced. If you have played the game Enter The Matrix (where that picture of the new oracle came from), you will hear a little explanation of how the oracle came to look like she does now. for you i will paraphrase here:
the merovingian sold her deletion codes to someone ... causing the breakdown of her outer shell and much of her memory. her prophesizing has become more vague due to this. she mentions something about how she LET this happen for the life of a child. a child that will play an important part in things to come, much like neo. who this child is is not revealed, but there you have it...straight from the game, which has exclusively shot footage running parallel with the plot of the movie Reloaded and leading into Revolutions.

i am anxious to hear your thoughts.

db

 

[Tabitha]

Welcome to AScifi :wave:

Thanks for the info on "Enter the Matrix" - I had heard that it filled in quite a few blanks, and your snippet is helpful in explaining some things.

The Merovingian says to Neo at the restaurant "Give the fortune teller this message: Her time is almost up", so evidently that has come true.
And an important child? Things are looking so bleak for Zion and the humans that recently I have begun to think that Revolutions might end with a reboot of the Matrix, but with some special difference, that will make the next incarnation the final one in which the Machines keep control. For example, for all the inhabitants to gain Neo's power, or some such vital change.

Neo is the sixth anomaly - perhaps the child is the seventh? Seven is a number with religious implications, isn't it?


As for your ideas about Neo's abilities in the real world... well, I am still not convinced that the real world is at all real. We have had little or no hints in the series so far that there has been any great leap in human evolution (could there be, with humanity plugged into machines?), so regardless of what abilities he might possess inside the Matrix, I am not swayed by the possibility of him gaining them in a 'real' reality, ditto for Smith's control of the Bone/Bane character.

I think there is some merit in the idea that Neo himself might be a program built into the Matrix - the Architect describes him as being a product of the systemic anomaly arising from the tiny minority of humans that choose freedom - if he is a program, then the reality he awakens to in the original film surely can't be real.
Beyond this, his experience is different from that of the previous anomalies because he has fallen in love - something machines can't do?

So, if Neo is a program, Zion must be another level of the Matrix.
If Neo is not a program, but a human, his powers and Smith's new abilites further suggest Zion is another level of the Matrix.

That's my take for now.