Matrix Reloaded (2003)

[cersei]

thanks for that!

Great to hear of this very interesting bit about "new" Oracle in Enter the Matrix...would be great in fact if someone could post a complete breakdown (even better movie files hehe) of storyline in Enter The Matrix...I have the game but knowing me, it will take me longer than Matrix Revolutions release to finish hehe

Good thoughts about this "important child" being the Next "One", Tab.

As for all the various comments about why Neo not seeing the real world code before and etc, the simple answer is right till that moment Neo went back into Matrix door (as opposed to Source door previous versions), he has always been doing excatly what the Machine wants him to do...even dying, becoming The One etc is all predestined (ok I don't think they meant him to "infect" Smith that way)...possibly because he is only a routine programme but even if human, it is all set for him. Even if he is a programme, he is not "sentient" (or rather, Free of the system as Smith says) right till he "rebels" by going the other door.

so, now for first time, Neo is truly different...not like after the first movie as we were led to believe.....now the Machines should be really scared

 

[pkgrl]

Welcome to our world, drdoug and deadboy!

It's AWESOME to see so many new names coming into this discussion!

t if that was true then shouldnt neo be able to see it (the code)?

That's what I wondered, too. But if the "real" world actually is another level of the Matrix, then perhaps he isn't seeing the code simply because he doesn't believe it to be there. He actually believes that he's in a real physical world, and the human mind is a powerful thing.

In fact, because the human mind is capable of more power than we generally use it for (hehe), why don't more of you guys think that Neo is simply developing more advanced abilities? He is the One, after all. And he's also different than the previous five versions of the One. He might simply be developing the ability to maniplate reality the same way he manipulated the Matrix.

maybe when ex-agent smith tried to infect neo, before the big brawl, neo's program got whatever it is that makes agent smith different, whatever it is that allows a program to leave the matrix...
so since neo picked that up, maybe neo's anomoly program left with neo into the real world.
Thus allowing neo to sense the senitenals at the end.

Yeah, something like that.

Not sure if this is near the mark or not, but I still wonder.

P.S. The "goatee guy" is Bane.

 

[Tabitha]

Re: Welcome to our world, drdoug and deadboy!

Originally posted by pkgrl
It's AWESOME to see so many new names coming into this discussion!

Indeed!

Newbies! Nice to see so many people fired up by this movie and coming here to air their thoughts.

Originally posted by pkgrl
That's what I wondered, too. But if the "real" world actually is another level of the Matrix, then perhaps he isn't seeing the code simply because he doesn't believe it to be there. He actually believes that he's in a real physical world, and the human mind is a powerful thing.

Absolutely! I think you hit the nail right on the head. Look at how much Neo's powers within the Matrix evolved once he was told the truth - whereas before he was living out his life bound by the rules of the simulation.

Originally posted by pkgrl
In fact, because the human mind is capable of more power than we generally use it for (hehe), why don't more of you guys think that Neo is simply developing more advanced abilities? He is the One, after all. And he's also different than the previous five versions of the One. He might simply be developing the ability to maniplate reality the same way he manipulated the Matrix.

OKay. Now here is where it becomes interesting.
Neo is the One, lets take for granted he is indeed human and Zion is real.
The One can control the Matrix, or rather, control its code. I think this is something to do with how Neo's mind works - he is capable of gaining a level of clarity and understanding that the rest of the humans are unable to achieve. I see this ability as being akin to being a Chess Master, or perhaps even a Savant - you know, like Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man. No explanation for those abilities, they just exist, and have been documented in human history time and again.

Now, I think Neo's powers are something that could only be expressed in the Matrix - as it is only within the simulation that the code exists to be manipulated by him.

Let me put it another way. When the Rebels get uploads (Kung Fu, hotwiring motorbikes, flying helicopters), do you think they carry these abilities over into the real world? I doubt it. Having the knowledge is one thing - in the Matrix they are able to instantly put that knowledge into practice, but I think in the real world it would require practice and repetition to really utilise this knowledge.

And remember, there are things they can do in the Matrix that aren't possible at all in the real, physical world. Why assume that because you can bend the rules of code so that you can fly in a simulation, you might be able to do the same in real life? I think this is a leap too far for my imagination to take. There are too few clues pointing to this outcome as yet, and too many questions that will need to be addressed before I could accept it.


So basically, I am saying that if Neo IS human, he can't take special abilities into the real world. The problem remains then, how did he disable the sentinels at the end?

My answer would be that (as I have started to say an awful lot - sorry!) what everyone has known as the real world is indeed another level of the Matrix, and Neo has realised this - "Something's different".

 

[deadboy]

i like pkgrl's theory about the human mind. we as a species only use approx. 3% of our capacity. 3%!!! imagine the things we could do if we could tap the other 97% that just sits there!

maybe neo has gained the ability to access that untapped mental resource, giving him abilities in the real world (or what we've been led to believe is the real world) that the other rebels and humanity as a whole simply cannot comprehend. IF the machine world IS the real world, could neo not have gained abilities previously thought impossible? who knows what that other 97% holds. ever played the game Galerians? neo's little EMP at the end of the movie reminded me of Rion's psychic powers from that game (yeh, i play a lot of games...it's my carreer). it's all just an expansion of the human mind's resources.

of course, if the machine world IS the real world, i concede to my previous post about neo being as one with the machines, due to his uncanny abilities in the matrix, and his merge with smith, (multiple times over).

for those who've not had the pleasure/blessing of playing Enter the Matrix, i will post a plot synopsis for you in a new post. enjoy kiddies...

db

 

[timdgreat]

wow i go away for 2 days and look what happens, lots of new ideas and several new members, welcome by the way

Ok so im still on the fence about the whole idea of Zion and the "real world" being another level of the Matrix, although i am leaning towards the idea that it is. At this point the arguments that have been made and after seeing the movie 5 times it does seem fairly likely that Zion is a seconed matrix, although i cant come up with a reason for Neos powers other then that, im sure there is one.

Another question about the Archeteict and what he said, Did he specifically say that the matrix would kill all the people in it in 24 hours? cuase i dont remember ever hearing a time limit.


(will have to think more on all the other posts, but keep the in depth thinking coming):rolly2:

 

[cersei]

No, I don't think the Architect said in 24 hours...he merely said if left unchecked, the Matrix will break down. 24 hours may have been quoted in regards to time left for Sentinels to get to Zion since counter-attack failed...

 

[pkgrl]

No, the Architect never said that Zion had 24 hours.

Architect: "Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the human species."

So... is Zion "real" or another system altogether?

Here's another head-scratcher: If Zion is just another level of the Matrix, then how come some of it's inhabitants don't have plugs? Remember in The Matrix, Tank said didn't have any plugs because he was "100% home-grown human, born right here in the real world," just like his brother Dozer. Link and Zee don't have plugs either, and neither did several others I saw in the Zions scenes. Anyone who believes that Zion is another part of the Matrix have any ideas for that one? Tabitha? Cersei?

 

[drdouglasp]

i think the reason that the true zionists don't have the plugs and stuff is because the machines place them in zion before they get outfitted to be place in the matrix...
like when they are still babies or something, maybe raised by machines. who knows

this would further the idea that there is a resistance and that "real" humans are left on earth....

 

[Tabitha]

Originally posted by pkgrl

Here's another head-scratcher: If Zion is just another level of the Matrix, then how come some of it's inhabitants don't have plugs? Remember in The Matrix, Tank said didn't have any plugs because he was "100% home-grown human, born right here in the real world," just like his brother Dozer. Link and Zee don't have plugs either, and neither did several others I saw in the Zions scenes. Anyone who believes that Zion is another part of the Matrix have any ideas for that one? Tabitha? Cersei?

C'mon!

If Zion is just another level of the Matrix, then we are back to layers of belief. Thomas Anderson at the beginning of the first movie didn't have honking great black spots all over him because he didn't KNOW he was in the Matrix. By the same token, I believe that Morpheus and Trinity et al *believe* they are in the real world, and therefore accept everything in it. It is Neo's sudden control over the machines that begins to show the cracks of this world - isn't it convenient that the only people that might really know, or have some perspective on the truth are unconscious?

When I say that Zion is another level of the Matrix, I believe that none of the humans are actually aware of this. They think they are really free, fighting a war against the machines, when in reality I believe they are also hooked into a simulation maintained by the Architect, or other humans, or somthing else altogether. The difference between the rebels and the humans in the original Matrix is that they sensed something wasn't right, and discovered part of the 'truth'. They made the choice not to accept the Matrix, but what they didn't know that rather than wake into reality, they were simply moving between levels.

The whole freak-out factor of the first film was that the simulation was so real it was impossible to tell it from reality. Doesn't that throw every 'reality' into doubt? Or is the 'Real World' and Zion just so terrible it has to be real?

 

[deadboy]

72 hours...

i promise the Enter the Matrix synopsis soon...gotta refresh a few areas and dialogues before i do tho...

however... just a little trivia type thing:

at one point, Niobe (capt of the Logos) is about to jack out of the matrix at a pay phone, when a derelict (bum) walks by her and says, "72 hours..."
Niobe: what did you say?
Bum: 72 hours...that's how long Zion lasted last time
Niobe: who are you?
Bum: oh i'm just a spectator, enjoying the show...(or something like that)

you're little 24 hour quibble reminded me of that...

db

 

[Tabitha]

Re: 72 hours...

Originally posted by deadboy
i promise the Enter the Matrix synopsis soon...gotta refresh a few areas and dialogues before i do tho...

however... just a little trivia type thing:

at one point, Niobe (capt of the Logos) is about to jack out of the matrix at a pay phone, when a derelict (bum) walks by her and says, "72 hours..."
Niobe: what did you say?
Bum: 72 hours...that's how long Zion lasted last time
Niobe: who are you?
Bum: oh i'm just a spectator, enjoying the show...(or something like that)

you're little 24 hour quibble reminded me of that...

db

Hey Deadboy - if you haven't already done it, I am pretty sure I saw a fairly detailed synopsis at the Reloaded IMDB page.
Apparently the bum you mention is the same fella that has just been to see the Merovingian before Neo et al get there!

 

[cersei]

yep its that same long haired bum being shown very briefly being shoved off as Neo arrives to see Marovingian...

could he actually be THE ONE BEHIND IT ALL? hmm....

as for why Tank, Link and others not have plugs in real world, that's simple its just another simulation anyway and if Machines wanted them to have antennas, they would in order to make them think they are in "real world" they are born intoa different programme anyway. They do have plugs but their programme avatar does not just like Neo did not when he thought he was "real" in the Matrix

anything for u Tab

 

[pkgrl]

Guess I'd better get that frelling game installed, eh?

I know I'll have more dilemas after work... do most of my thinking about the Matrix there.

 

[timdgreat]

a thought i just had after reading the last couple of posts,

asuming that the "real world is just another say layer of the matrix, then when a system crash ocurred that killed every one in the matrix wouldnt it also just kill all of Zion, making it unnecesary for the Squids to wipe out the population. Or do u think that the Arceteicht was just talking about all the people in the Matrix we know of?:rolly2:

 

[HeyLynny]

REview

I just saw the movie and was not really impressed. The action and computer graphics was amazing, but the movie itself did not pull me in. When it was over I was like, "That's it?" I didn't really get it. Neither did the people I went with. Maybe the 3rd one will tie it all together. I still have hope.

 

[cersei]

just read this entire thread

Just read this entire thread and you weill understand HeyLyny.
It is far deeper than any other movie I have ever seen. And no, I dont think the action is that amziong though ehhe

 

[pkgrl]

Okay, just saw Reloaded for the seventh time today and I'm beginning to believe in the MIM theory. It even gives Neo's "it's a bomb" line more weight. If he's already feeling that "something's different" before they leave the ship, and it builds until he turns to stop the squiddies, the MIM sure would explain all that.

Seraph: I remember someone mentioning that the computer programs look different to Neo. That their code appeared golden/white instead of green, because we see Seraph in that golden code. But remember that Neo saw the three agents at the end of the original film in code, too, and they were green like the rest of the Matrix. Based on that, and the fact that Seraph is the only program whose code we're shown, I think that the W bros are telling us that Seraph is special. All we really know about him is that he glows and that, in his own words, he "protects that which is most important." What this important thing is, we don't know for sure. We're led to believe that it's either the Oracle or access to her, since that's what immediately follows his words, but we can't be sure. It's possible that what he's protecting is the future. The Oracle said she's "interested in one thing: the future." So if Seraph is acting as her bodyguard, maybe what he's protecting is the future... through her. Last thing about Seraph. I think he glows golden/white is because he's an angel. The seraphim were archangels, like Michael, so his name is highly symbolic.

I noticed a couple new things about the screens in the Architect's room, too. Like when the Architect tells Neo that Zion is about to be destroyed, Neo says "bullsh*t" and so does every Neo face on those screens, like bullsh*t is the only possible response to such a damning assertion... or the only one the Architect could predict? The other thing was... during all those cries of denial and anger behind Neo after the Architect revealed that there had been five previous One's, one of the responses that is voiced is "I'm scared." That's one I wouldn't have seen coming. It surprised me, and also reminded me that Neo is, in fact, human.

I love the depth of this film!

 

[cersei]

Nice thoughts pkgrl. Congrats on 7 viewings I won't be anywhere near that...one more time to make it 4 or perhaps total of 5th at most

Its not that i get bored with it but do love other movies too hehe.

Anyway will be plenty more watching come Nov with DVD hehe

I had same thought about Seraph yesterday as it turns out as again Machines/Programmes may say something which on face value may mean the obvious but its not always the case

So "I protect that which matters most" may not necessarily mean the Oracle. Like your theory though that it may mean the "Future".

The "I am scared" Neo is nice touch too

 

[Jkaiyummie]

Here's a thought on Seraph:

In Isaiah 6:1-2 'In the year the king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above is stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.'

6:5-7 'Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undoone; because I am a aman of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts. Then flew on of the Seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar. And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.'

Plus I read somewhere that Seraphim is Hebrew for cleansing/burning. Perhaps that's why Seraph is glowing and 'burning' and he gave Neo, the One, a test (of fire perhaps?) to see if he truly is who he is. by fighting Seraph with hand to hand (touching?) he is cleansed and purified. hehe cool eh.

Plus you can see the Seraphims hovering the throne of the Lord as if guarding it. Well, they are guarding it. Hence Seraph's protecing 'which is most important'.

 

[pkgrl]

Good one, Jkaiyummie! I love it when other people do the research legwork. Great insights, too! Didn't know about the burning and cleansing aspects of the Seraphim. Thanks!