Istari powers - open floor

[Raynor]

Our first Tolkien debate (a successful enterprise to a certain point) concerned the following topic:

"Did limiting the powers of the Istari by the Valar prolong the war against Sauron? And if so, was it a wise decision of the Valar to limit their powers?"

Since that debate was limited to only two teams, I wonder if the other members would be interested in presenting their view on the subject.

 

[cornelius]

good one, raynor

 

[HieroGlyph]

For most of the time those two teams are the most frequent visitors to the Tolkien section. The rest are busy in GRRM-group-discussion... Oo, oops, sorry, just kidding folks...

 

[lightvsdarkness]

Yes. Yes.

With limited powers they was most powerful beings(except Sauron). So, Bosses do not wanted to give to the people dozen of saurons or tear apart continent in cruel magic battle.

 

[Rinion]

The Valar saw that direct intervention was not the way to go, yet they still wished to contest Sauron's power. Therefore, they sent the Istari not to directly face the evil that stirred in the east, but convince others to do it. They were meant to get men to forge their own fate, I believe, and let them face just as much trial and tribulation as the Istari themselves.

In so doing, both sides were 'tested', I believe. Still, even with their godly powers hidden, they were a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Overread]

Don't forget that Sarumon was corrupted by Sauron. Had his powers not been limited he would have been an even greater threat than he already was. Also he was corrupted without the influence of the one ring and one of the ways of defeating the dark lord was to destroy the ring - which meant finding it - remember that gandaulf refused to take the ring at any cost.

 

[Rinion]

Don't forget that Sarumon was corrupted by Sauron. Had his powers not been limited he would have been an even greater threat than he already was. Also he was corrupted without the influence of the one ring and one of the ways of defeating the dark lord was to destroy the ring - which meant finding it - remember that gandaulf refused to take the ring at any cost.

I would not say that Saruman was corrupted by Sauron as much as he was of his own greed. Sauron was, to him, simply a means of getting that power. He was very knowledgeable in the lore of the ancient rings, and his lust for that power is what really turned him to darkness, as the saying goes.

Case in point, he told the Ringwraiths that he did not know who found the ring and that he knew nothing of the Shire in an attempt to hinder them. If he was truly allied to Sauron, I doubt he would have done this. Thereafter, he spends almost all of his time in an attempt to find the Ring.

 

[Sephiroth]

Indeed. Saruman was a powerful Maia, his will was too great to be bent wholly to that of Sauron (this was the case even with Denethor).

In reference to the original question, limiting the powers of the Istari unquestionably prolonged the war. But it was still a wise decision. Contrast the outcome with that of the War of Wrath, when 'Beleriand was broken and laid waste'. Besides which, the existence of the One Ring made Sauron more vulnerable to a small force (say, two hobbits?) than to all the armies of Middle Earth.

 

[Overread]

Thereafter, he spends almost all of his time in an attempt to find the Ring.

Ture points, but I feel that he would not have betrayd Gandaulf as he might have the Rohan. Befrending the enemy to buy time to get the ring is not a stupid tactice, but turning his back on his fellow istari was what made me feel that he had become more than jealos - from memory I think at one point Gandaulf describes Sarumon as being corrupted by the enemy - the stuard of Gondor was also corrupted through the orb (can't remember name) and the dark lord also targeted either merry or pipin.
I think there was also that the feeling was given that once Sauron possessed the ring he would be tempted to use it - or carry it himself and thus be corrupted.- If in his full power that would have dramatically turned the titde of the war.

 

[Dean F. Wilson]

It's actually quite easy to see how Sauron at least influenced the lust Saruman developed for power, for it is told that his quest for knowledge brought him ever closer to probing the mind of the Enemy, which, as you can imagine, would put one at risk of being corrupted. I think it would be safe to say that Sauron did not corrupt Saruman, or bend him to his will (as, say, he did with the Nazgul), but he may have helped to awaken that inner greed and lust for power, which Saruman did not always have.

The limiting of the powers of the Istari may have prolonged the war with Sauron, but if Saruman was more powerful, he may have found the Ring and laid waste to Rohan, and perhaps the Ents as well. Without the aid of the Rohirrim, Sauron would have crushed Gondor, and then the Dark Lord would have waged a great war with Saruman, which would have further desecrated the land and any surviving people.

If we look at the powers of the Istari, they are all about "influence", which another poster mentioned above. Gandalf is the great "meddler of affairs", first getting a nice innocent hobbit to go on an adventure with him and his dwarves (resulting in the finding of the Ring [which perhaps the Valar had fated to happen through Gandalf's intervention]); then there is the Council of Elrond, which Gandalf plays a pivotal role in; then the trip to Rohan, where he breaks the dominion of Saruman and, in effect, influences Theoden to go forth to war (I dare say he may even have deliberately left the hobbits with Treebeard, knowing that they were perhaps the small stones that start an avalanche); and that's not even mentioning Minas Tirith. Indeed, his Ring is said to amplify his own power to influence.

And what of Saruman? The Voice of Saruman is a great example of a power to influence, and the leech-craft of Grima is an extension of Saruman's attempts to influence and dominate. Indeed, even Radagast could be said to have the power of influence, for it is with this that he has such rapport with the birds and beasts of the land.

Then there are the two Blue Wizards. We do not know much about these, but there is rumour that they went into the East and fell under the dominion of Sauron. If this is so, they became his servants (or were destroyed and their power assimilated by him). If they were more powerful, this may have made an even greater threat.

-D

 

[Boaz]

Sauron the drug dealer and Saruman the addict? Interesting.

 

[Mallorn]

Then there are the two Blue Wizards. We do not know much about these, but there is rumour that they went into the East and fell under the dominion of Sauron. If this is so, they became his servants (or were destroyed and their power assimilated by him). If they were more powerful, this may have made an even greater threat.

-D

Surely speculation regarding Sauron assimilation their powers. Being Maiar themselves though incarnated as old men, they were Maiar nevertheless. I am not sure about this but I don't think in any part of the Silmarillion or any other work, power was assilimated by anyone.

They were either destroyed (physically) and their spirits went back to Valinor or were indeed seduced to Saurons service.

 

[Clansman]

Gandalf is the great "meddler of affairs", first getting a nice innocent hobbit to go on an adventure with him and his dwarves (resulting in the finding of the Ring [which perhaps the Valar had fated to happen through Gandalf's intervention]); then there is the Council of Elrond, which Gandalf plays a pivotal role in; then the trip to Rohan, where he breaks the dominion of Saruman and, in effect, influences Theoden to go forth to war (I dare say he may even have deliberately left the hobbits with Treebeard, knowing that they were perhaps the small stones that start an avalanche); and that's not even mentioning Minas Tirith. Indeed, his Ring is said to amplify his own power to influence.-D

Gandalf never foresaw that his pressing Bilbo into the dwarves' service to reclaim the Lonely Mountain would have such far reaching effects. Though he does not pronounce upon the issue, his intent was surely to restore the Lonely Mountain and the Kingdom of Dale, at the same time as destroying Smaug. The Ring never figured into it, until Bilbo told him of the Ring. Gandalf and others foresaw the rising of the Shadow, (the Necromancer) and having a strong dwarven kingdom in the north served to protect the northern flank of Rohan and Gondor. Indeed, without Dale and the Lonely Mountain, and the dwarves of the Iron Hills, the north may have been utterly lost during the War of the Ring. To use Gandalf's words, "not even the very wise can see all ends", and the restoration of the dwarven kingdom at the Lonely Mountain was simply the icing on the cake. The finding of the Ring was the true victory of that quest, for the Ring had already betrayed Gollum and was waiting to be found by one of the servants of the Great Goblin, and would have then been taken to Sauron.

Gandalf's influence served to bolster the races of Middle Earth, but had he more power, they would have more likely served him and not striven as hard as they did. His lack of power is what made him truly powerful, because his power to influence created more strength in those he counselled than what his power to rule would have. This is an illustration of one of the Christian themes that Tolkien explored throughout his work (the concept that when a person is weak, and admits it, there God shows strength).

It is when people pursue power in Middle Earth that they fall (Saruman, Boromir (though redeemed at the end), Denethor, Grima) to the Shadow (which is the flip side of the Christian theme mentioned above). Though this is pure speculation, perhaps this is what happened to the blue Istari. THAT is a story I have long wished had been told, but alas, never will be.

 

[Marky Lazer]

For speculation sakes let us assume the Blue Wizards were really corrupted into Sauron's power; I'd say this makes Radagast a way more interesting character than everyone believes him to be...

 

[Grimward]

And yet, for someone supposed to be firing the hearts of others (not that he has Narya like Gandalf) to oppose Sauron, Radagast sure seems to have forsaken his calling (unless we're presuming "others" to include the animal kingdom)....

 

[Boaz]

Grim, I would not say that Radagast forsook his calling. It's difficult to know what the main objectives for each of the Istari were. If we look at these Maiar and their corresponding Valar benefactors, then we might be able to guess their parts to play in Middle-earth.

Curumo (Saruman) was in service to Aule. Aule was the smith of the Valar. He created the Dwarves. Saruman used this knowledge to begin his own race of orcs and to begin forging rings. Remember, Sauron was also originally a Maia of Aule. Saruman was sent to provide direct opposition to the knowledge and plans of Sauron. I think Saruman was to lead the others because he knew best what Saruon was doing.

Olorin (Gandalf) was a Maia of Manwe (the King of Arda and Lord of the Air) and Varda (Queen of the Stars). They are by far the wisest of the Valar. Olorin had a special affinity for Elves in the Elder Days. His mission was to remain faithful to the wisdom of the Valar while kindling hope in the hearts of the Eldar.

Aiwendil (Radagast) was a Maia of Yavanna. She was the protector of all flora. I think she was called "the giver of fruits", but it's been a long time since I cracked The Silmarillion. It was for her that Eru made the Ents to protect her dominion from the axes of her husbands creatures, i.e. the Dwarves. But flora does not exist in a vacuum, so Yavanna was also closely concerned with the fauna of Arda as well. It seems to me that Radagast served her in this capacity. Saruman mocked him as "Radagast the bird tamer." I think Radagast's mission was the preservation of the flora and fauna of M-e.

Alatar and Pallando were Maiar in service to Orome. He was the huntsman of the Valar. These two went off to the east and were not heard of again... I assume they went hunting for Sauron. I believe their mission was to provide speed and some muscle for the Istari, yet it does not seem that they waited for Saruman to provide them with adequate information for the attack.

I believe that Radagast was still working on his primary mission at the time of the War of the Ring.

But the problem was that Alatar and Pallando went AWOL and Saruman turned traitor. So the Istari's individual responsibilities needed to change to reflect this. We know that Gandalf assumed Saruman's role by becoming the White. I also think that Gandalf, upon Shadowfax, assumed the roles of the Blue Wizards by adding speed to his repetoire. With Narya, the Ring of Fire, and Glamdring, Turgon's lost sword, Gandalf had some muscle to oppose the Balrog and the Nine.

So by the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Gandalf was actively fulfilling the missions of four of the five Istari... while Radagast was still only working on one.

I think the hoplessness of the situation may have driven Radagast to bury his head in the sand and attempt to lose himself in his work. Radagast did not fail in his mission as did three of his brethren, yet he did not rise to the occasion like Gandalf.

Clansman, I agree with your last two paragraphs. I'd like to add that because Gandalf was sent by Manwe and Varda he had great wisdom and patience. He trusted in the mysteries of Eru. He did not know that the quest for Erebor would yield the Ring, but he did know that if decent folk stepped out in faith to combat evil, then good things could happen, i.e. their efforts would be blessed.

Bilbo and Frodo both met friends upon the road. These friends aided and succoured them in times of trouble. They both seemed to have great luck in impossible situations. I'd say that both returned home knowing they were still small and weak, yet knowing that they'd been somehow fortunate or blessed to have succeeded. But neither was ever hale or whole afterwards... they'd been deeply wounded. Their openess to being hurt, in being pierced to their souls, is what kept them emotionally grounded after their adventures were over.

I'm trying to avoid overtly Christian language here. Not because I don't agree, but because I think these themes of admitting weakness, standing against evil, and then finding success are universal truths. Every culture has legends of men, women, and or children gaining divine favor to overcome insurmountable odds.

 

[Grimward]

But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West to contest the power of Sauron, if he should arise again, and to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds.

Regarding the Istari, from The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, p. 299


It is THIS calling, Boaz, that he forsook or, perhaps, if "forsook" is too strong a term, at best he's just going thru the motions. He unwittingly helps Saruman by lending him birds like the crebain to bring tidings to Isengard at Gandalf's bidding, and also unwittingly frees Gandalf by sending Gwaihir the Wind Lord to Orthanc for the same reason, enabling Gandalf's escape (with apologies to those who only know the version from the movie; it simply DIDN'T happen that way; Read the Book!). When Elrond sends messengers in summons to the Council where the most significant decisions and strategies regarding how to contest the power of Sauron will be made, Radagast is not at Rhosgobel, and is in fact nowhere to be found.

I do not question that he was very good at carrying out Yavanna's will (his mission?) where living things are concerned, nor do I question his motives or allegiance. But "moving elves, men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds?" Not in evidence....

 

[Boaz]

Grim, I think we're pretty close here. I like your clarification of the exact nature of the Istari's quest.

Radagast did not join the Enemy, but neither was he doing much (if anything) to directly oppose him. If you'll allow me, Radagast could not see the forest for the trees. I think he was more concerned with his individual mission than in the successs of the group... He relied on Saruman too much to defeat Sauron. In the end, he was almost zero help to Gandalf... in fact, he proved as helpful to Saruman as Gandalf. I would not say he "forsook" his mission, but he certainly did not fulfill it.

 

[Grimward]

*Extends a fiery hand*

Accord is a beautiful thing, methinks....

You could almost say Gandalf, who talks to eagles, ponies, horses, and is friends to the trees (or, at least, their shepherds) is acting in Radagast's stead, or even that he is Radagast as Radagast was intended to be (again, keeping the quest in mind). Tying it back to your summary above, he looked at the situation after Saruman's treachery and said to himself, "What the h_ll, I'm already doing the work of the other 3, I might as well be Radagast, too!"

 

[Boaz]

Yes, I'd agree that Radagast should have been the one who established and maintained contact with Treebeard.

Can we make a list of the things that each of the Istari should have done or at least trace their areas of concern? I know hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but can we figure out what their individual missions are? The corporate mission was stated above by Grimward, yet I think from the affiliations of the individual Istari we should be able to guess the reasons for their inclusion in the quest.

The following are mere guesses. Please feel free to disagree with my notations or add to them.

Gandalf - Liason to the Eldar. Liason to the Eagles. Encourage the Noldor. Minister to the leaders of the Eldar.

Saruman - Provide counsel to the leaders of the Eldar. Liaise with the Dunedain. Liaise with the Rohirrim/Northmen. Liaise with the Naugrim. Be the anti-Sauron. Provide insight into the machinations of Sauron.

Radagast - Liaise with the Ents... and thus assist the Ents in their search for the Entwives. Liaise with the Druedain. Utilize communication among the animals, i.e. the Ravens, thrushes, and Crebain to gain intelligence.

Alatar and Pallando - As followers of Orome, the Hunstmand of the Valar, I think these two were assigned to slay monsters like spiders and dragons... and dare I say a Balrog.

Noticeably missing from my list is anyone liaising with the Easterlings, Haradrim, or the Hobbits. I know that Gandalf ended up as a guardian for the Hobbits, but that was probably not on his to-do list from Manwe and Varda.

I also wonder where Felarof and the Mearas came from. Was Felarof a descendent of Orome's horses as the Rohirrim believe? This may sound crazy, but perhaps Radagast genetically engineered the Mearas. If this wonderful sub-race of horses was running wild in the north since the Elder Days, don't you think the descendents of the Noldor and Sindar would have found them? That leads me to Asfaloth, Glorfindel's mount. Was he akin to the Mearas or merely another creature the Elves enhanced by their presence?

Another thing that strikes me as odd... is that none of the Istari represent Ulmo. In The Silmarillion, he is the most active and ardent supporter of and communicator with the Noldor. Were his only followers Osse and Uinen? If so, I'd say they were too powerful to send... and Osse had shown himself to be a loose cannon. Or could the reason, that Ulmo did not include one of his minions in the group, be that Ulmo was still active and present in Middle-earth? Maybe he instructed Cirdan to give Narya to Gandalf? Did Elrond found Rivendell because of the examples of Elwe, Finrod and Turgon or did he receive a dream from Ulmo? Maybe Ulmo gave power to Elrond to defend Rivendell? Maybe he strengthened Boromir and Faramir in defending the bridge of Osgiliath? We know Ulmo sent dreams during the First Age... perhaps he sent the dreams to Boromir and Faramir...

I'm just thinking out loud...