Fireballs? Oh my.

[Prefx]

I'm fairly confident, from my research, that catapults were more commonly used to throw dead things and giant stones, but I was wondering what could actually be used as a "fireball?" Are there certain stones that can be lit on fire, and others not? I might sound a little dumb here, but I'm no pyro.

Also, does anyone have a good site to weapons used over the ages? I've searched via google, but perhaps someone has something better? If I'm being too vague, I actually mean late B.C.E. and early C.E.

Edit- Also, does anyone know what the official name is for the "end" of a catapult where you put the missles in? I really need some good books on weaponry.


Future thanks are in order.

 

[Saeltari]

Greek fire; sulfur, naphtha, and quicklime.
and check out,

http://users.wpi.edu/~dev_alac/iqp/indepth/index.html

I have more on my other computer. Will get them to you later.

 

[Saeltari]

you might find this interesting too,

http://www.mech.utah.edu/NEWS/Events/trebuchet.htm

 

[Prefx]

Muchas gracias.

 

[chrispenycate]

The actual composition of greek fire was such a well kept secret that it was totally lost, and nobody now knows the exact recipe. However, it probably contained saltpetre, (probably extracted from dung heaps, as later, when making gunpowder) to act as an oxidant so water wouldn't put it out. However, since the stuff could be pumped over enemy vessels, it sounds a bit liquid to be directly thrown by a catapault.
The romans used both balls of pitch soaked vegetable matter (must have been fun getting the synchronisation so that it was well alight, but not sticking to the basket) and earthenware jugs full of inflammable liquid, which could well have beem greek fire, as we know they still had the recipe.

 

[Dead Riverdragon]

The name Greek Fire is somewhat misleading, since it was the Byzantines who created it (from about the C7th), so it seems doubtful that the Romans had hold of it, though I guess that depends on how broadly you apply the term 'Romans'.

Back on topic, I've heard the end of a catapult arm referred to as a bucket, but I'd try to corroborate that before using it.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

My husband has shelves of books on weaponry -- mostly medieval and earlier -- and seige engines like catapults and trebuchets are one of his particular interests.

He has an account here, which he never uses, but maybe I can coax him into making an appearance on this thread to answer your question and recommend some good books.

 

[Sir Jon]

I've been asked to reply to your questions. I will do the best I can.

For the end of the throwing arm on any catapult that is not using a sling, the term would be cup, spoon, or basket. The part for holding the missile was often carved out of the same section of wood that was used for the arm. In order to throw burning materials the contact surface would need to be made fire-resistant. This could be done by covering it with a thin sheet of metal such as copper, or even water soaked leather. A metal cup or basket could also used for catapults that would specialize in throwing flaming objects.

Trebuchets and some catapults used a sling (two ropes and a pouch) on the end of the arm to increase efficiency. This is just an educated guess, but if they were used to throw flaming material the ropes, at least part of them, would likely be replaced by chain, and the pouch could also be made of chain in a kind of open weave.

The possible flaming materials have been covered in previous posts.

For some books on siege try: Medieval Siege Weapons by Nicolle. The Medieval Siege by Bradbury.

For general books on weapons: A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor by Stone. The Archaeology of Weapons by Oakeshott. The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms and Weapons edited by Tarassuk and Blair. Medieval Weapons by Wise.

For early period try: Greece and Rome at War by Connolly. Warfare in the Ancient World by Hackett.

I hope this is of some help to you.

John

 

[dwndrgn]

I read it somewhere and can't recall where so there is no immediate confirmation for this one:

dried dung balls. Apparently, stays alight, burns nicely and even if the outside is mostly dry, the inside isn't so there is some good breaking apart upon impact...also, very cheap and easy to make.

as I said, I've got no confirmation on this one as yet but I did read it (could have been fiction)

 

[Prefx]

That's a weird coincidence, dwndrgn. I actually put that into action before you posted. It makes sense.

And thanks, Sir Jon!

 

[yebastick]

I have the same question a few years back for one of my story. For lack of reference, I put myself in a situation of how I would make it if I live at that time. Here is what came up.


1. Use a solid rock covered with dry hay, dipped in wax and tar. To use and ignite it, splash it with alcohol (wine) as you take a sip or two of the wine as well. (This relatively cheap to make and materials are abundant, the tar and wax, I mean, not the wine)

2. Instead of solid rock, use a pottery clay molded in a ball of the size and shape you desire. The inside of the potted ball is hollow. Inside the ball, it is stuffed with hay, nails, rocks, and brokens glasses. Wrapped the potted ball with hay, also dipped in wax and tar. (This ball does more damaged but takes a lot more time to prepare)

3. Instead of wax and tar, wrapped things with woolen rags. Or you can dipped the woollen rags in wax and tar, and wrapped it on the ball.

4. Instead of clay, one can use molded iron balls or sculpted wooden ones. The ironmold would less likely to break apart. While the wood balls would be light to carry around but would be less likely to penetrate stonewalls.

NOTE: But not too much sip of wine: it may render you less accurate when you target something.

Of course, if I knew about the dung thing, I would have put it inside the ball itself just for the fun of it.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Seige weapons aren't supposed to be that accurate, yebastick. You're often shooting blind at something you can't even see on the other side of a wall. It's like massed arrow fire -- you're not aiming at anyone, but you figure if you keep up enough of a barrage you'll hit someone.

What John didn't mention in his message, Prefx, although he said it to me before he wrote to you (as though I didn't already know it -- I've lived with the man for thirty years!), is that there are a several different weapons that come under the general heading of catapults -- trebuchets and onagers, for instance, as well as true catapults -- and you might find, on doing a little research, that one of those others suits your characters and their situation better. Or (it occurs to me) you might want to use a ballista, which is like a giant long-range crossbow, and the equivalent of fire arrows.

Oh, and I asked him about the dung balls. He said it's a good idea except they wouldn't burn very hot, and it would be easy to stamp out the fiery bits when it broke apart.

In my own book, the one I'm writing now, I needed the people laying seige to a fortress to be able to construct some sort of projectile weapon on the spot. So of course I asked my resident expert, and he suggested a traction trebuchet. All you need is some ropes and logs. Since I already had a pine forest on hand, and some ice giants to put the pieces together quickly, that was perfect.