Varys: What's his motivation? (Mild ADWD spoilers)

[3EyedCrowsEye]

I think you have a narrowly focused idea of what a eunuch would look like. The Unsullied are eunuchs, yet I guarantee that they are rock solid without an ounce of flab or excess fat. The one characteristic that they might have, which isn't actually described in any of the books would be an abnormally high voice If you look at the roles of eunuchs throughout history (real world history) you'll see that they have often been used as body guards (often in harems) and military people. A eunuch COULD be chubby and effeminate, but they aren't so by definition.

In the books they even say that Danys Unsullied would look like every other eunuch if they didn't keep up with their rigorous training, all that I have said about eunuchs was said in the books, it's not just my narrowly focused idea of a eunuch but GRRM's as well then.

 

[The Imp]

In the books they even say that Danys Unsullied would look like every other eunuch if they didn't keep up with their rigorous training, all that I have said about eunuchs was said in the books, it's not just my narrowly focused idea of a eunuch but GRRM's as well then.

but the unsullied don't look like "typical" eunchs. Nor does Strong belwas, who is fat in his belly but rock solid. Anyone, enuch or not gets fat if they don't train and stay in shape. Just go to your local K-Mart to find all the examples of that statement that you'd care to see. The boilogical difference between a enuch and a normal male is testosterone levels. A normal male could gain more muscle mass than a neutered version of that same person, but it doesn't mean that muscle can't develop. If varys chose to get into shape he could. IMO, the "soft" look is part of his personna, eunuch or not.

 

[Tywin]

If you castrate a man he tends to put on weight because of the hormone imbalance. The same thing happens to cattle when we turn young bulls into steers.

On the upside they cut the balls off the unsullied while with cattle we normally just place a tight band around them and wait until they whither away (no chance for infection then).

 

[Ursa major]

To be fair, and has been pointed out already in this thread, Varys has told us whither his parts went.



Whether we believe him is another matter entirely. (I'm in the No camp on this one.)

 

[The Imp]

To be fair, and has been pointed out already in this thread, Varys has told us whither his parts went.



Whether we believe him is another matter entirely. (I'm in the No camp on this one.)

Yes Ursa, it was a touching tale that he told Tyrion. perhaps it was even true.

My main point has been that I don't believe anything that Varys says. He adopts the role that allows him to blend in the best. He clearly tells whatever tale he needs to tell go further his agenda. Did he lie about getting "cut" I don't know that he did, but I wouldn't bet that he didn't.

And just as an aside. If I was Illyruio I'd be watching my very large backside

 

[Needle]

I know this doesn't help much but Varys may or may not be a eunuch. If he is (so sad) his physical appearance is of his own choosing, he could be in as great a shape as anyone else if so chose, but why? it would only serve to make him physically intimidating, a disadvantage in his position.

If he is not, it is a rather brilliant lie! He would be viewed in much the same way (by both sexes) as many view homosexual men. Big, strong warrior types need not fear him, that would be an insult to there manhood. Women would be more apt to trust him, he would not after all be after their body! Husbands would not be suspisious of him around their wives for the same reasons.

Now please no one chew me out for this! These are not my opinions, just the way many view the world, both this one and aSoIaF! And Varys, regardless of what else he is, is smart enough to take advantage of whatever he can!

 

[The Imp]

I know this doesn't help much but Varys may or may not be a eunuch. If he is (so sad) his physical appearance is of his own choosing, he could be in as great a shape as anyone else if so chose, but why? it would only serve to make him physically intimidating, a disadvantage in his position.

If he is not, it is a rather brilliant lie! He would be viewed in much the same way (by both sexes) as many view homosexual men. Big, strong warrior types need not fear him, that would be an insult to there manhood. Women would be more apt to trust him, he would not after all be after their body! Husbands would not be suspisious of him around their wives for the same reasons.

Now please no one chew me out for this! These are not my opinions, just the way many view the world, both this one and aSoIaF! And Varys, regardless of what else he is, is smart enough to take advantage of whatever he can!

Thank you Needle, this was exactly what I was alluding to. What better way to be non-threatening to nearly everyone than as an asexual powerless "it' that is neither man nor woman. it would be a brilliant cover.

 

[Ursa major]

My main point has been that I don't believe anything that Varys says.

Me neither. Though it would be just like GRRM to use something that Varys said in truth, something which many of us don't believe, for driving a major turning point in the series. I am assuming - I guess most of us are (which is a dangerous thing to do) - that Varys will be there at the death.

And just as an aside. If I was Illyruio I'd be watching my very large backside

Very true, but he'd need a system of mirrors.

(Is the Illyrio-Varys relationship a case of the big cheese and the greater...?)

 

[Tywin]

I like Needle's points about how non-threatening a eunuch would seem to others. I'd also like to add that actually being a eunuch might be an advantage in that he wouldn't be distracted/tempted by a lot of the things that become the undoing of those of us with all our pieces (and desires) intact.

 

[The Imp]

Me neither. Though it would be just like GRRM to use something that Varys said in truth, something which many of us don't believe, for driving a major turning point in the series. I am assuming - I guess most of us are (which is a dangerous thing to do) - that Varys will be there at the death.



Very true, but he'd need a system of mirrors.

(Is the Illyrio-Varys relationship a case of the big cheese and the greater...?)

If it turns out that Varys really told the truth it really adds nothing to the story. If GRRM eventually takes us down a plot line which shows that varys is not a eunuch, and has been "playing" everyone, including most of the readers, it beomes much more interesting IMO, especially if he creates something really interesting about Varys. Such things could be

He isn't a eunuch, and he and illyrio are lovers (there;s a sight i don't want to imgaine) I think Illyrio is gay, given that statue in the middle of the pool described in the first Tyrion chapter of aDWD

Varys is a Targ (as some have suggested before) and is working to restore his House to power. varys is a very "Targish" name (as many in the past have said)

Varys is working with the Faceless Men, perhaps in charge of them. Their money is what is funding the plot that Illyrio and Varys have going.

varys is an agent of Rhllor, and wants to bring about a return of the Valyrian empire, and needs magic and dragons to do this.

varys is doing what he's doing for The Children (of the Forest). He actually tells us that in the aDWD epilogue,but the c isn't capiltalized. I don't really think he cares about the children in a generic sense.

You could go on and on. IMO, the least interesting is that Varys is doing what he's doing for "the children' or for "the good of the realm". But maybe that's the surprise. GRRM has us/me looking for wheels within wheels, and there actually aren't any.

 

[Tywin]

And how about this one for a crazy theory:
The Faceless men worship Death, and Varys is their agent in Westeros, working to bring about the death of the 7 kingdoms.

Aren't there some characters somewhere in the series that have a special relationship with death? Like that they are the dead walking the earth or something?

If Varys was working for the others, plunging the 7 kingdoms into civil war and destruction would be the best thing to do logically.

 

[Ursa major]

If it turns out that Varys really told the truth it really adds nothing to the story. If GRRM eventually takes us down a plot line which shows that varys is not a eunuch, and has been "playing" everyone, including most of the readers, it beomes much more interesting IMO, especially if he creates something really interesting about Varys. Such things could be

He isn't a eunuch, and he and illyrio are lovers (there;s a sight i don't want to imgaine) I think Illyrio is gay, given that statue in the middle of the pool described in the first Tyrion chapter of aDWD.

I wasn't necessarily talking about Varys being truthful about the circumstances of his castration. (I don't believe that story at at all.) I was thinking more that once GRRM has made nearly all of us doubt Varys's every word, he'll get Varys to say something akin to some of our crackpot theories and it'll turn out to be near enough true (give or take the odd twist or two).

 

[Eulalia]

Just for fun, here is a crackpot theory.

Illyrio's beloved second wife Serra (with silver gold hair) was a Targ/Blackfyre, and the sister of Varys. (didn't they both have connections with Lys?) Young Griff is the son of Illyrio and Serra (who died in the plague or in childbirth)and is the nephew of Varys. They want to marry him to Dany and restore the Targs/Blackfyres. Jon Connington was given Young Griff by Varys and told that he was baby Aegon.

 

[TK-421]

I still don't buy that Young Griff is truly baby Aegon. Hopefully a future encounter with Dany and her dragons will either confirm he is or will expose him as a fraud.

 

[The Imp]

Just for fun, here is a crackpot theory.

Illyrio's beloved second wife Serra (with silver gold hair) was a Targ/Blackfyre, and the sister of Varys. (didn't they both have connections with Lys?) Young Griff is the son of Illyrio and Serra (who died in the plague or in childbirth)and is the nephew of Varys. They want to marry him to Dany and restore the Targs/Blackfyres. Jon Connington was given Young Griff by Varys and told that he was baby Aegon.

I love it.

I was thinking during my re-read of that Tyrion chapter that Illyrio got caught in a lie when he was telling where Varys came from, and that the woman in the locket was part targ- the silver streaked hair.

 

[Eulalia]

There has to be some reason Illyrio and Varys are doing what they are doing. Illyrio seems very sentimental about Serra and was more handsome when he was younger. Varys said he was working "for the children".

Aegon could be the "mummer's dragon". (Vary's Blackfyre nephew, made all the more important if he has no nads).

Didn't Henry VII have a very slender claim to the English throne and cross the seas to become King of England by right of conquest and married the Yorkish princess, thus uniting the two contesting houses? Not that GRRM is slavish to history--still.

 

[Lady Nymeria]

I am not sure how accurate the Game of Thrones TV series are, but if I remember correctly, there is a scene in the HBO TV series where Varys asks Ros to be her spy for littlefinger.

In that epsiode the whore, Ros, touches his d***, only to find it absent .

He can still be a Tagryareyen though.. one who was unwittingly castrated as a boy....

 

[Eversummer]

I've always thought that Varys is such a wicked name. Thru his cunning and mocking and flattery and his being a master of whisperers, everyone would agree that it fits him to be called so especially when he was introduced in the aGoT: we do not know which side he's on. It VARIES to each player of the game of thrones. They're no even the real players. Varys is.

He might be one of the bastards the Aegon the Unworthy sired on one so many whores from in the Seven Kingdoms...I dunno.. perhaps he then found himself in Lys. Pretends to be born a slave... But, one thing I know about the slaves that Lys trades are more often that not about bedslaves who were trained in the Seven Sighs.

Well, I think about other ideas on who Varys really is.... I sorely have to have my eyes peeled wherever chapters he would appear.

 

[A-roc]

Eulalia, I really like your theory. I always found it unsettling that Aegon was Rhaegar's kid. Next time I reread I'll be thinking of this when I get to their chapters.

I bought Varys's tale about his castration and his hatred of the supernatural though, so the ideas of allying himself with Oldtowne or TFM carry some weight IMHO. I dont have anything new to add, but was compelled to post because it really clicks. Good one!

 

[A-roc]

Here is more evidence of Eulalia’s great idea about Aegon being Illyrio’s son. It really clicked with me when you proposed all the relationships, so I did some research to support her crackpot theory.

All references are from the American hardback version of ADWD.

First thing to acknowledge is that Illryio is quite fond of Aegon, almost like how a father loves a son. Pg. 81,Tyrion: “Don’t trust sellswords, yadda yadda.” Illyrio: “Griff is different he has a son he dotes on. Young Griff, the boy is called. There was never a nobler lad.” Griff dotes or Illyrio actually dotes on…

This passage in particular illustrates Illyrion’s feelings. Pg. 113, Illyrio, “There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it” Illyrio sounded oddly sad. “I thought I might continue on to Ghoyan Drohe with you. A farewell feast before you start downriver…” So here we have Illyrio longing to see his son before the kid sets off on his defining adventure. And, who gives candied ginger to a pawn in the game of thrones? I mean, c’mon, candied ginger!

Pg. 20, the statue in Illryio’s manse: A naked boy stood on the water, poised to duel with a bravo’s blade in hand. He was lithe and handsome, no older than sixteen, with straight blond hair that brushed his shoulders. This just shows that either Illyrio had blond hair or the statue was made after Aegon, since a father misses his son. We don’t know when the statue was crafted, but it depicts a boy the same age as Aegon. Pg. 79 Now recall Serra, whom Illyrio picked up in a Lysene pillow house, brought her back to Pentos, and fell in love with her. Lysene have blond hair so Serra could safely blend in there with her dragon blood. If the statue really was made after Illyrio, it just goes to show both Aegon’s parents have blond hair, blond hair from Illyrio plus blond from Serra if she is a Blackfyre not Lys. Or Illyrio is the Blackfyre…

Here is the connection to Varys: Varys is Serra’s brother, both of whom are decedent from Aegon the Unworthy or Daemon Blackfyre. The text on pg. 78 is a bit confusing to me, but I guess Maelys the Monstrous was a son of Daemon who rebelled against Aegon the Unworthy. Illyrio told Tyrion on why the Goldon Company will ally with Dany even after they rebelled against the Targs, “Black or Red, a dragon is still a dragon. When Maelys the Montstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of House Blackfyre.” Well, Varys has a dragon name and is from Myr, which is pretty close to the Stepstones. Plus, Illryio smiled through his forked beard, meaning Varys is not quite male missing his family jewels and the bloodline actually continues through him and his sister. Illyrio is also lying about the bloodline ending, because of Aegon. So, if Varys is Aegon’s uncle and Illyrio’ son, it could explain why those two rascals are so close.

Tyrion asks why Illyrio wants to help Dany reclaim the Iron Throne for the Targs, on pg. 74 Illyrio states, “As you will. The Beggar King swore that I should be master of coin and a lordly lord as well. Once he wore his golden crown, I should have my choice of castles…even Casterly Rock, if I desired….why would I want the Rock…Master of Coin, though…” Master of coin or to sit on the king’s council and guide his son as the king of the realm and restore the dragons to the throne with Varys’s help?

This evidence is a little disjointed, because of my lack of understanding of the Blackfyre history, and especially the timeline implications. So it’d be much appreciated if anyone could remark on that. Regardless of the Blackfyre angle, I think Aegon is Illyrio’s kid.

One last point. Many people think that there is a connection between Illyrio, Varys, and the Faceless Men. We also think TFM are trying to sneak into Oldtowne to find a book on how to kill dragons. So why would they want to both kill the dragons and help sit Dany on the throne? Perhaps Varys and Illyrio want to kill the dragons once they take the realm with her help so they don’t have to share the throne with a Targ. We know Varys is a master player and always thinking many steps ahead. Or maybe there is something in that book that will help them control the dragons. Or maybe they are not even connected to TFM in the first place…