Rhaegar?? For the sake of discussion

[Snagas Tender Blades]

OH! I have one! Maybe everyone is a Targaryen!!

Yeah!! But it's more likely that everyones a Baratheon, considering how many bastards Robert sired...

 

[Hot Pie]

I don't tend to prescribe to most of these conspiracy theories, but I almost think Tyrion might very well be Targaryen. His father's hatred of him, his stunted and twisted visage--well not proof enough but if you think about something Varys said in Clash of Kings.

[FONT=&quot]The eunuch handed him a scroll. "So much villainy, it sings a sad song for our age. Did honor die with our fathers?"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"My father is not dead yet." Tyrion scanned the list.

Now it may just be a flippant remark by Varys. "Our fathers" meaning ancestors. On the other hand, this is the Spider (and Martin) so small clues like this may be more than they seem.
[/FONT]

It's an interesting passage you point out, although I still can't see much else that would support the theory (unless the Smiling Weirwood is right that everyone is a Targaryen).

But for the sake of conversation, does anyone know whether Tyrion's physical traits (deformities aside) is described in such a way that would indicate resemblance to his father or siblings?

 

[YOSSARIAN]

I don't think Tyrion resembles his family in any physical trait...which is why so many people theorize that he is part Targaryen.

 

[Raven]

Hot Pie: Tyrion has one green eye and one black. I believe green eyes are a Lannister trait. However, some Targs have been described as having eyes that were so deep a purple as to appear black.

Similarly, Tyrion's hair is described as 'almost white' and indeed his beard is white in patches. Some Lannisters are described as having hair so blonde it seems white: but the description could also fit a Targaryen hair colour. (Then again, Tyrion also has black patches in his beard which fits neither.)

As for the rest, hard to find a family resemblance given Tyrion's deformities... but some have suggested those in themselves are a sign of coming from an inbred line.

Overall the evidence from appearance is pretty inconclusive. The mismatched eyes could well be a hint, but the rest is inconsequential or equivocal.

 

[Boaz]

Tyrion's mother, Lady Joanna Lannister, died from complications in Tyrion's birth.

My crackpot theory (I've stated this elsewhere) is that Tyrion is the son of the Mad King. I don't have hard evidence... just hints, wild guesses, and strong desire for it to be true. LOL.

1. Tywin quit as Aerys' Hand for unexplained reasons. And the two never met again... Did Tywin know or suspect that Aerys was Tyrion's father?
2. Tywin joined Robert's rebellion at the time and place to do the most damage to the Targaryen cause. He had Aerys' grandchildren murdered. Did he do that because Aerys chose Elia over Cersei or did he have a deeper motive? He could easily have left Elia and her babes in dungeon for Robert to deal with... i.e. no blood on Tywin's hands.
3. Tywin despised Tyrion. Was this only because of Joanna's death? Some father's would not blame the son but cherish the son as the last memory and tangible evidence of a deep and faithful love. Did Tywin suspect that he may not have been Tyrion's son?
3. Tywin always refers to Jaime as his son. The only time Tywin called Tyrion his son, is when he sent Tyrion to be the Hand. I need to note that Tywin's family, his life, his success, his legacy, and the entire Lannister future rested on being able to control the government and to control the army... and he could not be in two places at once. He had no choice but to send Tyrion to King's Landing. He knew Tyrion could be almost as ruthless, as cunning, and as calculating as he himself could. I think he told Tyrion that he was his son to give him an extra boost of confidence to accomplish the mission, not to convey love or affection to Tyrion.
4. Tyrion is fascinated with Dragons. Perhaps many readers of ASOIAF are also, that does not make them Targaryens... but Tyrion is a scholar of history and especially dragons.
5. As Raven pointed out, Tyrion's physical features of eyes and hair could mark him as a Targaryen.
6. Tyrion makes friends with bastards... by birth or by nature. Is this because he is one too?
7. Maester Aemon recognizes something great in Tyrion. Perhaps an almost regal nature.
8. He takes a lover with the characteristic Targaryen "ae" pattern... Shae.
9. I think that Aerys II took Joanna by force... I doubt Joanna went to him willingly. We know that the Red Keep is full of secret passages and that the Targaryens pobably knew them all. Jaime knows that Aerys took his own wife by force, so what's to have prevented him from raping other women as well?
10. Knowing that Tywin never suffered an insult (A Lannister repays his debts), Joanna hid the rape from him. If Tywin had raised his banners, ten years before the Arryns, Starks and Baratheons were ready, well I guess that would have been then end of House Lannister... the Paynes or the Presters might be sitting on Casterly Rock.
11. Cersei had two prophecies from Maggy. The first is that a new queen will supplant her. This might be Margaery, but it's probably Danaerys. If Cersei misinterpreted the first, she probably misinterpreted the second as well. The second was that her little brother would do her in. She thinks this is Tyrion, but in fact Jaime is also her younger brother... and he seems to have turned his back on her. Is Jaime the correct interpretation because he is her only brother?
12. During the war, the small folk of King's Landing spread rumors of how Tyrion planned on making himself king.
13. Tyrion might not look impressive or fight well from a charger, but he could do both atop a dragon.
14. Tyrion was not bad as the ruler of Westeros.
15. The Valyrian spelling of Tyrion is Thyraen. Just kidding.
16. Tyrion wonders why he does not love his father and his siblings more or perhaps more accurately he wonders why they don't love him more.
17. Perhaps, Tyrion is the physical manifestation of Aerys' inner nature.
18. Tyrion seemed very curious at the Wall and what was on the other side.

Again, these are not meant to be logical arguments. Just observations and wishful thinking.

As to Rhaegar being the hooded priest? Could be. In my opinion, Jaqen H'ghar and fake Pate have just as strong a claim. And what about Brown Ben Plumm? If Barristan could disguise himself, why not Rhaegar? Perhaps, Rhaegar became a faceless man and adopted the guise of Strong Belwas to protect Dany.

If Rhaegar is really alive, I might have expected to see him north of the Wall preparing the Wildlings to fight the Others.

From what we learn of Rhaegar from Barristan, Jaime, and others, it seems that Rhaegar was very proactive. He knew he had a purpose in life and he did not sit around waiting for it to someday happen. I can't imagine that Rhaegar has been quietly biding his time as a monk at the mouth of the Trident for sixteen years. If the monk is an ex-knight, it's more likely he's a Darry, a Whent, or a Hollard... i.e. an old Targaryen loyalist who had nowhere else to hide from Robert.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

2. Tywin joined Robert's rebellion at the time and place to do the most damage to the Targaryen cause. He had Aerys' grandchildren murdered. Did he do that because Aerys chose Elia over Cersei or did he have a deeper motive? He could easily have left Elia and her babes in dungeon for Robert to deal with... i.e. no blood on Tywin's hands.
3. Tywin despised Tyrion. Was this only because of Joanna's death? Some father's would not blame the son but cherish the son as the last memory and tangible evidence of a deep and faithful love. Did Tywin suspect that he may not have been Tyrion's son?
3. Tywin always refers to Jaime as his son. The only time Tywin called Tyrion his son, is when he sent Tyrion to be the Hand. [...] I think he told Tyrion that he was his son to give him an extra boost of confidence to accomplish the mission, not to convey love or affection to Tyrion.
5. As Raven pointed out, Tyrion's physical features of eyes and hair could mark him as a Targaryen.
9. I think that Aerys II took Joanna by force... I doubt Joanna went to him willingly. We know that the Red Keep is full of secret passages and that the Targaryens pobably knew them all. Jaime knows that Aerys took his own wife by force, so what's to have prevented him from raping other women as well?
10. Knowing that Tywin never suffered an insult (A Lannister repays his debts), Joanna hid the rape from him. If Tywin had raised his banners, ten years before the Arryns, Starks and Baratheons were ready, well I guess that would have been then end of House Lannister... the Paynes or the Presters might be sitting on Casterly Rock.

If all of these things are indeed true, why would Tywin keep Tyrion alive? If Tywin was as ruthless as you say, would murder Targaryen babes without a second thought, and Tyrion's patronage can even be doubted upon a closer look at his physical attributes- why wouldn't Tywin kill him? It's not so hard to smother a tiny baby, especially a "monster" who would shame the name of such a proud lineage. And I wouldn't put it past Tywin to do something like that.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

If all of these things are indeed true, why would Tywin keep Tyrion alive? If Tywin was as ruthless as you say, would murder Targaryen babes without a second thought, and Tyrion's patronage can even be doubted upon a closer look at his physical attributes- why wouldn't Tywin kill him? It's not so hard to smother a tiny baby, especially a "monster" who would shame the name of such a proud lineage. And I wouldn't put it past Tywin to do something like that.

because he didn't know, not for certain. And it's quite clear from the text that Tywin was devoted to his wife, so, despite his hatred for his ugly, embarassing son, he couldn't kill him knowing he was her child. Her last act.

perhaps.

 

[Boaz]

Arya could not even let my post stand for an hour and a half before she shot it to pieces... sheesh!

Edd, thanks for the backup.

Now as long as Raven does not see this post for a few days, I might pick up some support. Raven has a nasty way of cutting through the crap and making sense of disjointed posts.

 

[YOSSARIAN]

Boaz-Nice post. It's amazing how both you and Raven can construct arguments that are as cogent as they are super freaking long. I have something to add that might support the Tyrion-as-Targ theory. In the Maegi's prophecy she says Cersei will be choked by the valonquar. Valonquar is High Valyrian for little brother (or is it just brother? I can't remember). This is why I think this is significant:if the Maegi just wanted to tell Cersei she would be murdered by her little brother, she didn't have to use the High Valyrian word but it seems that she found it necessary to do so. So I'm thinking a) I'm reading to much into this; b) if Tyrion is to be Cersei's killer than he has Valyrian blood; or c) an unknown Targarayen will kill her (he will be someone's little brother, not necessarily her little brother.

 

[TK-421]

Here! Here! Boaz. Although I'm not completely convinced, you have me almost there. Just waiting for ADOD and the Tyrion POV's to shed some more light on his true lineage. Now, I'm just waiting for those who do not share the view that other Targaryen's are hidden from plain view to spoil our fun.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I won't even go into the logical and factual arguments against all these ''theories'', I'll just say that sometimes, no matter how much you want something or how much sense it makes(to YOU) it doesn't always turn out that way. Especially when your theories are totally cracked.

 

[Jaxom_Ruatha]

Isn't Jaime also technically her little brother? I remember reading one of Cerseis' musings where she thinks something along the lines of "If only I'd been born a boy I would have all the power" because she came out of the womb before Jaime did? Does this ring any bells for anyone besides me? If this were true I don't find it that hard to believe that Jaime will end up strangling her to death.

 

[Tyranus]

I have looked a bit, but the way Westeros moves, you can barely find anything after a day or two. Oh and just try doing a search on Rhaegar.

 

[Hot Pie]

In the Maegi's prophecy she says Cersei will be choked by the valonquar. Valonquar is High Valyrian for little brother (or is it just brother? I can't remember). This is why I think this is significant:if the Maegi just wanted to tell Cersei she would be murdered by her little brother, she didn't have to use the High Valyrian word but it seems that she found it necessary to do so. So I'm thinking a) I'm reading to much into this; b) if Tyrion is to be Cersei's killer than he has Valyrian blood; or c) an unknown Targarayen will kill her (he will be someone's little brother, not necessarily her little brother.

Really interesting idea Yossarian. Add that to Boaz' list ... a good argument is forming.

But let me play the devil's advocate. The Maegi was from the Free Cities where they speak a dialect of valyrian. So it is possible that it was just her way of saying little brother.

On the other hand, why would Martin make a point of giving us the precise verbage with foreign words, if not to suggest something important? Why would he even go to the trouble of making up a cool sounding word like valonquar? Surely not merely for the sake of reminding us that they speak a valyrian dialect in the Free Cities.

So there must be something important ... perhaps along the lines that Yossarian has suggested.

(And, for the record, I don't think Jaime will kill Cersei. He's trying to redeem his honor, not bring more shame upon himself. I do think he will play a pivotal role in helping the Targaryen's return to power though.)

 

[Raven]

Thanks for the compliments, guys.

As it happens, I'm kinda agnostic on the 'Tyrion-as-Targ' theory: I've never been totally convinced by it, but some of the evidence does have a ring to it that makes me think it's credible. The mismatched eyes are probably the peice of evidence that appeals to me the most. Could easily mean nothing, but if the theory is true, fits so well...

The valonquar argument Yassarian advances is completely new to me - and I kind of like it. Not colossally strong evidence but suggestive.

Arya's counter-argument about Tywin killing Tyrion I've heard many times before, and no offence, but it always strikes me as weak, for the reasons already mentioned. Tywin would not kill Tyrion unless he was sure: and even then, he might not kill the son of his beloved Joanna. Just make sure there was no possibility of him inheriting.

I think this one is still wide open, whatever the smiling weirwood says. Nothing conclusive either way.

 

[Snagas Tender Blades]

I reckon that if Martin ever got writers block, he could just come to this website and there's a whole load of random conspiricies that he could use, and who knows, maybe he already does!

 

[Snagas Tender Blades]

And, for the record, I don't think Jaime will kill Cersei. He's trying to redeem his honor, not bring more shame upon himself.)

I kind of agree, but Jaime can be very hot-headed at times. Plus, I can't imagine little Tyrion actually managing to overcome Cersei in a fight, he would get some minion to do it, or use a crossbow.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Ahem...My earlier post was rude, unkind, condescending, and somewhat of a flame. I am very sorry. My sincere apologies to all.

 

[YOSSARIAN]

Ahem...My earlier post was rude, unkind, condescending, and somewhat of a flame. I am very sorry. My sincere apologies to all.

You're a true Southern Gentleman, sir.