David Eddings' major female characters

[Micolus]

One of the things my family has noted is that David Eddings' major female characters are not especially likeable. They're usually spoiled, demanding, manipulative, and play a constant game of one-upmanship with the male characters.

I've seen it described as a "strong female character" elsewhere, but I don't really see it as strong ... it certainly isn't behaviour I would either look to as an example, or want to emulate.

My family concluded David Eddings probably doesn't like women much.

I confess I've only read the Belgariad, Mallorean, Prequels, Tamuli and Elenium and the "talking cat crap" (thanks Lacedaemonian). Has anyone else found a likeable Eddings female yet? (Let's restrict this to major characters, as I accept Queens Porenn and Layla were likeable but they were only in minor roles.)

Mirtai
Polgara
Sephrenia
Aphrael
Zandrama
that valesian wife of emperor sarabian
Ehlana
poledra
All the goddamn dryads
Betuana


all of htem nice women....allthough i have to agree that the female parts are less important and more few.

 

[devilsgrin]

Aphrael!!!! Dears gods i hate her! One of THE most annoying characters in any Eddings book... in fact she is one of the main reasons i mostly detest the Tamuli (there are some good bits).
Zandramas certainly is not a nice woman! She's a cold-blooded killer, who never once does anything either remotely redeemable, nor anything particularly momentous... ooh she can turn into a dragon - cheesy!

 

[Rosemary]

Now I thought most of the female characters were well portrayed. In many cases they needed to show a nice manipulative streak, as some of the male characters seemed to need a bit of pushing to get them going, as between Polgara and Belgarath. Belgarath being blissfully ensconced in The Vale with his books, forgetting about the world outside and it’s troubles. I certainly didn’t think Polgara though that she was better than the men though.
Mirtai and Xanetia were both very intelligent and with strong characters.

Velvet/Liselle – I thought both her characters were strong, although one came across as being a very gentle and needing the support of her man. That I suppose was manipulative but considering the character of her ‘love’ what else was she supposed to be?
Queen Ehlana was much the same, she had a strong character when required.

I wonder if it was because some of the male characters were not very strong in their commitments, dragging their feet so to speak, that the females had to be manipulative. Often letting the men take the credit for the ideas that really came from Edding’s women!

 

[Curugon]

It's nice to see such strong female characters in a novel, even though someone recently pointed out that the Sci/Fi Fantasy genre sees more "kickass" heroines than any other genre. Polgara is one of my favorite female characters in literature - someone I simply will never get tired of. She is a nice blend of femininity and strength that never simply relies on her being a woman.

Other Eddings character annoy me to no end, such as Ce'Nedra. I hate how he writes her squabbles with Garion, like such arguments (which mostly center around belittlement and superiority) in marriage are completely normal. Perhaps it is reflective of his own experience? Poor man.

 

[ALDUR]

you guys forget about alot of them.
polgara
ce'nedra
cyradis
margravine lisselle
zandramas
porenn
and all of the other queens
oh yes i just about forgot about taiba and vella

 

[sayn]

One of the things my family has noted is that David Eddings' major female characters are not especially likeable. They're usually spoiled, demanding, manipulative, and play a constant game of one-upmanship with the male characters.

I've seen it described as a "strong female character" elsewhere, but I don't really see it as strong ... it certainly isn't behaviour I would either look to as an example, or want to emulate.

My family concluded David Eddings probably doesn't like women much.

I confess I've only read the Belgariad, Mallorean, Prequels, Tamuli and Elenium and the "talking cat crap" (thanks Lacedaemonian). Has anyone else found a likeable Eddings female yet? (Let's restrict this to major characters, as I accept Queens Porenn and Layla were likeable but they were only in minor roles.)

How can you conclude that he doesn't like women just because you don't like the way his characters are? The thing is, not every character is going to be perfect. Those flaws are what defines a good writer. A good writer gives his characters flaws and uses them to mesh with all his characters, major and minor. An example is Ce'Nedra's bossy and manipulative temperament. At first it combats with Garion and everyone else but eventually she is reigned in by other characters in the story. The leader of the Dryads the leader of the Ulgos, and eventually Polgara. Also her interaction with everyone in the group calms her attitude from what it used to be.

 

[Zombie]

Writing good characters is not about writing flaws. A character should develop naturally, if they have flaws then they should come to light as those flaws conflict with other characters and with the plot. Flaws in a character shouldn't be added simply to 'define' a persons ability to write, nor should they be given to a character - in fact a characters flaws should have a valid reason for being.

Flaws don't balance out our, or a characters personality. Real life simply isn't like that. We don't all have a great skill that is offset by some flaw. Some people have lots of flaws, some have almost none (aren't they really annoying?) and some are nothing but flawed.

However I wouldn't think that David Eddings hates women by the way he writes them. My opinion leans more towards the, he just doesn't get us camp. I think he had a female figure (mother, grandmother, wife) who loomed large in his memories that he found important and very dear to him who fit this personality type, to some degree. As such he assigned to his female characters traits of that woman.

 

[sayn]

I didn't mean that a writer should add flaws to seem like a good writer. I should've said that a good writer knows when to add flaws to use them to interact with the other characters. Also, I didn't mean to imply that a character's flaws balance out their personality.

 

[ghost8772]

my feeling has been that David Eddings wrote the male characters, and Leigh wrote the female characters. their interaction as husband and wife was there to form the interaction between characters. Polgara, childless mother figure, always as an aunt. She is constantly herding her young relative in the direction she wants him to go, add in her relationship to Belgarath the old man to refuses to go in the direction she feels he needs to go so she could be proud of him. Ce'Nedra - princess to her teeth - as an initial presentation she is shown for what she IS, an immature spoiled brat who is actively working to ensure she STAYS spoiled. then when things get turned on her she is still working to have the universe revolve around her. takes a long time several inched of ground teeth, but persistent work by all to finally get her to at least stop looking to how consistently the universe revolves around her.

Sephrenia and was in a situation where she was limited by being a styric. its even described. their gods make their decisions for them, as well as do a lot of the deep thinking, but when confronted by Elenes, they are both more knowledgeable, and less complex at the same time.

Ehlana was assertive, learned the arts of persuasion and argument, as well as being a stunningly beautiful woman, as was said, there are times when she acts beyond her years, as a powerful mature monrchs in full command of herself, then other times when she is a teenage girl etc...

yes the male characters are easier to relate to, they are a lot more easygoing and really only rouse themselves to action when its a matter of life and death of someone else. yes the women are bossy, pushy, clingy, and otherwise, but at least they're fairly real, consistent, and operate within the limits set on them.

 

[white_wanderer]

It appears that Eddings has "balanced" his characters. None of his main female characters are "plain" or heaven forbid, ugly. In fact they are quite the reverse. So that the men don't get distracted by obvious eye candy, he has given them a "look but don't touch" attitude and made them strong and intelligent - moreso than the male characters would ever have.

 

[ghost8772]

or need actually. most average women do not like the idea of being"pawed" they need the look but don't touch attitude. any males who take that attitude are branded fools by mainline society.

 

[JagLover]

I think David Eddings tends to put women on a pedestal and it gets a bit sickly in his later books ("universal sisterhood of women" in the Tamuli ).

With the exception of Ce'Nedra as a young girl. The female characters are morally better than the men, admired even worshipped at times.

 

[Tribble]

Just something I remember from Rivan Codex ... David Eddings in it likened himself to Belgarath and Leigh to Polgara ...

Favourite female characters ... hmmm

For what it is worth ...

Liselle - too young for Silk, but pretty smooth none-the-less
Polgara - I loved the character from the first moment in Pawn of Prophecy ...
Mirtai - a strong warrior who wasn't afraid to show her softer side when talking about her past
Danae/Flute/Aphrael - I just liked her ... she was manipulative and annoying ... but I liked her anyway (probably because some also call me annoying)
Poledra - she had to give up her husband and children to undertake a momentus task. She had to watch her husband go mad with grief at her apparent death ... her husband and daughter grow apart ... one daughter got married then grew old and died ... and her other daughter get married ... the strength she must have had

 

[pieoholic]

Aphrael!!!! Dears gods i hate her! One of THE most annoying characters in any Eddings book... in fact she is one of the main reasons i mostly detest the Tamuli (there are some good bits).
Zandramas certainly is not a nice woman! She's a cold-blooded killer, who never once does anything either remotely redeemable, nor anything particularly momentous... ooh she can turn into a dragon - cheesy!

Yes thank-you I absoultely HATE her!!! I've read 17 chpts of the Tamuli and half the time I want to throw the book against the wall, the other half I'm bored, although occasionally I laugh. She is so bloody annoying! This is a common interaction between Sparhawk and Danae:

Danae: Sparhawk I think your an idiot, but you still love me right?
Sparhawk: Of course!

And I hate this idea that women need to 'modify' men to make them better husbands and that all men are useless at romance and need to be 'convinced' they love a woman. One scene that irrated me was:

"A few days before, Sparhawk had idly wondered where he had made the mistake that had permannently attached his wifes's affection to him. He realised that this scruffy-kitten was Talen's mistake. Sparhawk mentally shrugged. Talen would make an adequate son-in-law - once Danae had trained him."

Talen is awesome, he doesn't need training to be her husband, if she loved him she wouldn't 'train' him..she'd love him the way he is, maybe help him with some of his bad habit/annoying traits, but not train him, that sounds barbaric. And it doesn't matter what he wants, she wants him so she's going to make him want her.

But they aren't all like that, and some men can be just as manipulating, they play at the womens game while pretending to be useless.

 

[kirgi08]

Lady Tamazin and Prala.Tamazin for her wisdom and Prala for her fire and not being a spoiled brat like Ce'Nedra was at the start.'08.

 

[LittleSparrow]

I think Taiba is a really strong character.

I think also Dweia/Em from The Redemption of Althalus is a strong woman. You might not think so because she obviously takes pride in being famous, beautiful and worshipped and tends to preen and "be bossy" as someone commented, but I think it is really good that his characters are mutli-dimensional. A really stong female character who is always right and never vain or preening or overly-righteous is just as cliched as a woman who is the opposite.

Also I think that you are noticing all these flaws in his female characters because this is your focus, his male characters are equally "flawed" or one dimensional, with the exclusion of the protagonist and a few other almost-main characters that he has obviously chosen to develop. For example Lelldoran and Mandorallen do not have much depth to their characters and Eliar (Redemption of Althalus) is a completely sterotypical, one dimensional "big, strong dumb" man, and is in fact quite "weak" in the sense that he is easily ordered around by the other characters.

If you took the time to analise all the characters I think the only discrepency you would find between the sexes is that his main character is always a man - which is fair enough, because it is only natural for a male author to feel more comfortable and more knowledgable with portraying the thoughts and emotions of a male.

I think Edding's books are meant to be read for the humour, adventure and great battle scenes (Redemption of Althalus has the best battle scenes - how come no-one mentions this book??? Its fantastic!) not for the depth of character and social meaning.

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

I'd have to say Sparrow is right-though I've yet to read the Redemption of Althalus. Never been able to find it anywhere.




But yes, while characters like Ce'Nedra and Polgara ARE willful, spoiled, and stubborn, you really can't rule out others.....such as Sephrenia, Porenn, and assorted others I can't really think of right now.



Essentially, I found his characters, in one way or another, to be human. How interesting is Superman or Wonder Woman, honestly?

 

[X'Nedra]

I don't see it as woman hating in the way the characters are written. I see it as well rounded characters with both good and bad characteristics.
When reading, I find that the "flaws" lead me to a deeper understanding of the characters and what's going on under the surface.

Yes, they annoy the crap out of me sometimes, but quite frankly if I had to spend that long, sleep deprived and cramped in with those people they'd irritate me also - I think it's realism, and not necessarily an inherit dislike of women.
Also, let's not forget that Leigh had a major part in writing the characters. I have often speculated, while reading these series, that they have been based on people close to the authors whom they both love dearly.

 

[morgaine]

I have only read The Belgariad, The Malloreon and it's sequels so I cannot speak about his other work, but I have always been pleased with Eddings' (and I guess I mean both Mr. and Mrs. Eddings') versions of female characters.

I guess I am slightly (or extremely) odd though, because I happen to LOVE Ce'Nedra (I do, I think she's extremely well nuanced character) but I think in females (especially when written mainly by male authors) tend to either be "damsel-esque" or "kick ass-esque," even in extremely well-written fiction (novels, films, television shows) it's hard to find women who are all the above and more, and shows with such characters still include the extremes (though in those, the extremes are more tolerable). I think the Eddings' did a pretty darn good job at illustrating female character with positive and negative qualities.

I'll use Ce'Nedra as my example since she seems so unpopular, yet she's a character I love. She's spoiled, bratty, condescending, manipulative and very many other negative things, but she's also smart, loving/caring, determined, loyal and extremely charismatic. Whatever it was that brought the army together, seems to work on a personal level as well since despite her mood swings she's so easily able to make friends of other women.

I think that many female characters in this series seem unrelateable, not necessarily because they are badly written, but because of the window through which we see the characters. Other than Polgara the Sorceress and the few sections in which we are reading through Ce'Nedra's perspective (the sections in which we actually see much of her motivations, and are shown her fear of losing her identity which is probably something she's feared all her life...even marrying an older Tolnedran, at least she'd still have her identity, marrying a King of another nation could make her lose that easily, and as someone who was raised not to bow to others, male or female that would be frightening) we look through the eyes of male characters. And while in some respects there is something "modern" about the women (I don't think so, I think strong women have always existed, even in extreme paternalistic societies) there still seems to be a degree of segregation between the sexes. In my humble opinion, it's often easier to relate to the male characters because the male protagonist himself does not often understand the female counterparts. He relates to the males, he hangs out with the males, while Polgara raised him and he trusts her above most others, he's still able to learn more easily from the males (or those instances are shown in more detail, he seemed to learn to write "off the page" and many of his discussions with Polgara also seem to be "off the page").

Garion seems more comfortable with males for many reasons, the inherent segregation between men and women for one, and also because he was raised by such a strong, controlling and even meddlesome women. For instance, perhaps he tends not to challenge Ce'Nedra is because of how and by whom he was raised. After all some studies (I don't have citations, sorry), boys raised by strong, stubborn women tend to marry strong stubborn, women and women raised by strong, stubborn men tend to marry strong, stubborn men (This is why it's concerning when straight boys have abusive mothers, or straight girls have abusive fathers).

Anyway, I guess to summarize my post (sorry it's so long) I don't think it's that the women are actually badly written or unrelateable, I think it's that we are "seeing" them through extremely biased and well confused eyes. When attempting to decipher the female characters with that in mind, I think they tend to be extremely relateable, interesting and well-written (including and especially Polgara and Ce'Nedra). His characters in general aren't the deepest, but because of his tone, there's so much potential depth in the characterizations.

Eta: Yes, I know that The Belgariad and The Malloreon are written in third person, but they are still for the most part usually slanted towards the perspective of one character or another (if that makes sense).