Lightbringer

[genisis2]

Will Stannis actually wield lightbringer. If so whose royal blood will it take to have it finally created or does Stannis die and its his blood that actually creates the weapon? Any thoughts?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Well, for me it's obvious that Lightbringer was made by Azor Ahai so it's still out there somewhere waiting to be discovered by a PoV character.
The fake Lightbringer sword Melissandre created for Stannis was for her to claim he was Azor Ahai.
Another issue is why Melissandre needs to create this image? It's certainly done Stannis no favours in Westeros. He hasn't even been given any foreign troops who would perhaps take part in this "war of light".

It makes me wonder what Melissandre's ultimate motive is. She must know that he isn't really Azor Ahai or she wouldn't have needed to 'create' him. Unless it's vanity & folly of the highest order on her part.

 

[Tom O'Sevens]

Well the whole War of the King might be some bizarre Myrish courtship rite between Melisandre and Thoros for we know?!?

More seriously though there's a lot of folks from Myr daddling at quite high levels in Westerosi politics. Thoros in Robert's court, then riding about the Riverlands making zombies, Melisandre brainwashing Stannis and burning people and then there's Magister Illyrio aiding and abetting Dany. Wasn't there also a Myrish lady in AFFC who set Cersai up for her fall. Finally isn't Varys originally from Myr?

What if this is all connected as part of a grand Myrish scheme to weaken Westeros prior to Myr invading?

 

[TK-421]

Interesting Tom O'Sevens. Foreign invasion of Westeros. Perhaps led by Dany? Although I'm not sure any of the Free Cities would want to invade a barbaric kingdom like Westeros.

The woman who befriended (in all senses) is Teana Merryweather and there have been musings as to whom she is working for. My guess is Varys as like you pointed out, are both from Myr.

Lightbringer is likely just a legend that Melissandre either made up or brainwashed Stannis with. I don't think her role in the grander scheme of things will be very important, except for being part of Stannis' downfall.

 

[Boaz]

Tom, very interesting, but I am with TK on this one. The Free Cities are on the brink of all out war, they are choosing sides as Martin writes. And Westeros is seen as only semi-civilized in the Free Cities and beyond.

Winter's Sorrow, yes, I've concluded that Melisandre either knows she is wrong (this makes her evil and apostate from R'hllor) or she does not know that she is wrong (which makes her at best, incredibly foolish and totally vain, or at worst, insane). Either way, she is bad for Stannis, for the Seven Kingdoms, and for some poor child descended from a king.

 

[Adasunshine]

I always got the impression that the sword Beric Dondarrion carried was the real Lightbringer, don't ask why, it's a hunch. Please don't ask for examples as my memory fails me right now but some things in the books point to it maybe being the case.

Surely, someone will be along soon enough to correct me.

xx

 

[Jaxom_Ruatha]

Yes I think I know what you're talking about, didn't his sword burst into mystical flame or something withut the use of gasoline or anything like that? Also it talked about his life force (Which now resides in Coldheart) as being a flame of some sorts, maybe it's the soul of Azor Ahai that is body jumping until it lands in the body of the son of a king (Most likely a deceased one as that is how it has been working so far).

 

[genisis2]

But why should Milissandre bring Stannis to the wall for some form of deceit? That could have happened anywhere and also the simple fact is she could give birth to one of her disgusting shadows and kill him.
Winters Sorrow bring up an interesting point about the weapon not being found and another POV finding it. Whether its remade or found it strikes me that it is a darkly made weapon that could only benefit the others.

Jaxom I think I remember it was only Thoros's weapon which was ignited with the help of Pyromancers fire during tourneys.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Yes, the sword Beric used was ignited with wildfire (which is green fire), at least it is assumed so because he only ignites it when fighting Sandor (dirty trick, but I like it) and does so with Thoros right next to him.

As for Lightbringer being used by the Others...I think the Others are the last beings who ever want to see that sword! Lightbringer is described as essentially a sword of flame, which is pretty much anathema to the Other's use of cold-based weaponry.

My take on Melissandre (and I admit I'm still unsure as to it's veracity) is that she so wants to be the one who "found" Azor Ahai and take the glory which goes with it, that she ignores blatant warnings that Stannis is not the one and rigs events to bolster her claim. It's been assumed that Dany is Azor Ahai reborn because of the parallels she's faced; sacrificing a loved one to gain that which is sought, and certainly she's the best candidate of those we have seen, but I'm confused with the Prince that was Promised. Is it as clear as Rhaegar, Melissandre etc assume. The prophecy states Prince therefore male, therefore not Dany. However, Aegon seemed to believe Dany was the PtwP before he died, so possibly the prophecy is ambigious?

Jon has been mooted as the PtwP and I can see why, but he has not got much in common with the Azor Ahai of legend to my eyes.
Although as a "son of ice & snow" (Stark) combined with a "son of the sword of the morning" - which is also an analogy to the Sun (Dayne) he has the heritage.
I don't really hold with the theory that Jon is a lost Targaryen, though.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

From what Maester Aemon said(and I assumed he was right) The Prince That Was Promised was not the actual wording and all these people just assumed it was a Prince instead of a Princess. He also said something about the gender of dragons being as changeable as flame, first one and now the other. Or something like that.

 

[Boaz]

Jaxom, interesting concept about the spirit of Azor Ahai... you think he's jumping around looking for a king's son? But by entering Stoneheart, a woman, perhaps he also interprets the prophecy as gender neutral... could be male or female. If you are right, Gendry is right under his nose...

WS, good thinking, I don't think Beric's sword was Lightbringer. But trying to sort out the real clues from the red herrings is very difficult, especially when the author is still working on the story.

tsw, I don't remember Aemon saying anything about dragon's gender capabilities, but there's a lot I don't remember. If you are right, and if Dany is the true dragon, could she change her sex? If she could, then she'd be the PTWP. If she could, then like Aegon the conqueror, she'd come with three dragons (and two queens if she can find them).

I'm getting so confused.

 

[genisis2]

As for Lightbringer being used by the Others...I think the Others are the last beings who ever want to see that sword! Lightbringer is described as essentially a sword of flame, which is pretty much anathema to the Other's use of cold-based weaponry.

I did'nt mean used by the Other's so much as whoever is using the weapon may cause more harm than good. The idea of using evil to fight evil and damn the consequences. How it would benefit the Others I havnt a clue.

My take on Melissandre (and I admit I'm still unsure as to it's veracity) is that she so wants to be the one who "found" Azor Ahai and take the glory which goes with it, that she ignores blatant warnings that Stannis is not the one and rigs events to bolster her claim.

Very interesting. Hmmm part of a Myrish plot or just for her own selfish reasons of the end justifying the means?

 

[TomServo]

Here's the talk that Aemon gives.
Aemon: "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought...the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was concieved, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

As for the gender changing thing, it seems to me that this quote doesnt mean that dragons could physically change gender, but this is more of a role changing. As it applies to Dany, I think that it is just to show that she doesn't need to be male to fulfill the prophesy.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I didn't mean to imply that Dany could change gender, I was just paraphrasing, badly. And why shouldn't dragons change gender physically? Some amphibians do it to adapt to a unbalanced population, why shouldn't dragons use this tactic as well?

 

[TK-421]

Does Melissandre know anout Dany? She may be aware as Stannis is that there is still a Tragaryen girl out there in exile but does she KNOW that Dany is becoming a force to be reckoned with? And if she does meet Dany, will she abandon Stannis and realize Dany is Azor Ahai reborn?

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Heres my question?

Is there any reason Jon can not be A.A? Just assume for a second that Aemon (who doesnt know about Jon) and Rhaegar (who assumed it was his son who was to be the PtwP...yet made his statement before Jons birth) could both be wrong about things....

Also, and this one is just me....I really really dont love Dany the way some of youse guys do...she only seems like a decent battle commander because the people around her are complete and total idiots....

turning the Unsullied?
going in through the sewers?
sending in her fighting pit slave to duel some chowderhead?


Please any battle commander with have a brain sees this coming....

She does try to be a good person though and that does bode well for her...and she does understand "noblesse oblige" ( a fancy way of saying the responsibilities of a noble caste--ahh the usefulness of a college civics course is neverending)...but for my money at this point shes an invader...for right or wrong people are gonna die when she brings her visions of power to bear and that is too much for me...

 

[genisis2]

Heres my question?


Also, and this one is just me....I really really dont love Dany the way some of youse guys do...she only seems like a decent battle commander because the people around her are complete and total idiots....

you dont love Dany? You obviously fancy that hussy Cersei Lannister!
BTW who are these compete and total idiots she has surrounded herself with? Personally the way shes sweeping through the land reminds me of Ghengis Khan.

 

[TK-421]

What's a chowderhead?

Anyways, Not to dwell on the finer aspects of the English language, how do we know Aemon does not know about Jon (I'm assuming you are refering to the theory that Jon is Rheagar's ******* son). Aemon is now dead an we'll never know what he knew but maybe he did not want to tell Jon if he suspected anything as he knew Jon was needed at the Wall. I think the biggest hint that Dany is the fulfillment of some prophecy or legend is the appearance of the comet.

Besides, Jon already has a cool sword. This is drawing some parallels to Excalibur it seems.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

But thats just it....even the enemies are dumb....

I mean really that whole Unsullied thing could have gone so differently....no really take every fighting man in the city....seriously, youre too stupid to turn around and kill us all....

As for the other city....I forget the name...

Do ya think the leaders were sitting around one day...

"Man we got some great walls here, and stout fighting men to defend em...and by sea, forget about it...youre better off just setting youre own ships on fire...I know theres the sewer tunnels but we have iron grates on those, so we;re safe, no ones coming in that way"


Case in point....WWII the French Maginot line sounds so surprisingly analagous to their strategy...."You cant get tanks through Belgium...thats impossible....so our incredibly well thought-out entrenchment with its one tiny hole a country wide is safe"....bah!

Seriously, do you see Lord Tywin or even the phenom that was Robb Stark falling for these ploys....theres a host of others as well that wouldnt be that dumb in the west, but over in the east they dont have a single captain that would just say "Hey....wait a minute...."

Face it...Danys the normal kid who winds up in the remedial english class and starts looking like a genius...



Thanks

I feel better

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

What's a chowderhead?

Anyways, Not to dwell on the finer aspects of the English language, how do we know Aemon does not know about Jon (I'm assuming you are refering to the theory that Jon is Rheagar's ******* son). Aemon is now dead an we'll never know what he knew but maybe he did not want to tell Jon if he suspected anything as he knew Jon was needed at the Wall. I think the biggest hint that Dany is the fulfillment of some prophecy or legend is the appearance of the comet.

Besides, Jon already has a cool sword. This is drawing some parallels to Excalibur it seems.

Im not gonna say Aemon cant know.....but I dont think he does...and this is all conjecture on my part so dont worry if theres flaws...

Lets run the time line...

1) Aemon assumes the PtwP was Viserys either upon Rhaegars death or Vs birth...doesnt matter which....

2) Viserys dies....Aemon is shocked...realizes Viserys cant be the PtwP

3) Rereads all the portents....reads whatever he read to convince Rhaegar

4) Realizes whatever source material he has never says he.....Dany is the one....it must be a princess because thats all thats left

If he knew about Jon, then he wouldnt be convinced Dany was the chosen one....unless it said she, but I cant believe he and Rhaeger both missed the pronoun....so his conviction is what leads me to believe that if Jon is Rhaegars son then Aemon knows nothing

So there ya go...you know nothing Aemon Targaryen....

I really feel better now