Is Mazrim Taim Demandred?

B

blink

New Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
4
i just have that feeling that Taim is somehow Demandred as he/they say in LoC and the latest book "let the lord of chaos rule".
What do you think?
 
Jordan has said before that "the Lord of Chaos" refers to Rand. I think that Jordan has said that Taim is not one of the Forsaken, though my mind might be playing tricks on me there.

*SPOILERS FOR WINTER'S HEART*




It's been a while since I read the series, but at the end of Winter's Heart, wasn't Demandred found to be that ex-lieutenant from Rand's male Aes Sedai (but not Taim)? Can't remember his bloody name. Or is Demandred that one that got brought back as a woman? God, I need to re-read this series.
 
Green said:
God, I need to re-read this series.
Click to expand...

At least this time you'll have the option of skimming the boring bits! ;)

I think it's been determined that Taim isn't a Forsaken (just another power-hungry charismatic false dragon).

I haven't read the new book yet (all my collection is in TPB and I didn't want to stick a hulking HB next to them) but does the issue of the Forsaken come up a lot?
I'm still cheesed off that Robert Jordan invented Balefire which erases people from existance only for these 'dead' forsaken to come back thanks to the Dark Lord's intervention.
Massive, massive cop-out there and completely devalues his series IMO :mad:
 
i just re-read "winters heart" and no he isnt demandred but hes deff. a darkfriend.

The guy dashiva is/was ors'angar or something like that.
 
Yes, and O'sangar was Aginor re-housed in a new body but Elza Penfell knocked him off.
 
If I remember correctly Jordan has specifically said a few times that Taim is not Demandred. I don't think we've seen Demandred's cover character yet but i'm not sure of that, been a while since I read the series now.
 
My oppinion is that he IS Demandred. There's the mystery in how RJ made no mention at all of when/how Taim knew about the kidnapping and when to arrive Dumai Wells.
 
I forgot now now and need to look it up but was Taim a false dragon if so It's highly unlikely
 
The thing is, in winters heart, Demandred says to the ash'man "kill him" then the Mhael is also quoted saying "kill him".

isnt Elza black ajah?
 
blink said:
The thing is, in winters heart, Demandred says to the ash'man "kill him" then the Mhael is also quoted saying "kill him".

isnt Elza black ajah?
Click to expand...

She is, but was brainwashed into serving Rand by Verin.
 
If you go to WOTmania site, you can find all explanation in the FAQ section, very useful.
 
i would just like to say that i have heard this theory before and i disagree upon the simplist of reasons, Taim gave Al'thor a seal, and therefore at that stage cannot be a Dark friend, let alone one of the forsaken. whether or not he was killed and replaced latter on is another thing altogether. i personally believe that Taim is in actual fact, Sammeal not dead and gone to ground. i have little proof of this, other than the forsaken knowing little of what goes on in the black tower, and a number of citations of a forsaken taking excessive security measures when making dealings. eg. the forsaken who had Isam\Luc looking for Mr & Mrs Lan.

Proof that Taim is a dark friend comes from 2 things in the latest book; Tiam using the phrase "let the lord of chaos rule" and the coincidental sudden movement of thousands of Trollocs through the ways (an un-sanctioned action according to Mordin) to attack Al'thor and Logian, when Taim burned to know where Al'thor was.

oh and i to have never ever been able to figure out how Tiam or anyone could have loacted Al'thor while he was in a box, on the move, surrounded by Aes Sedai without any forms of communication.
 
True... that could be the explaination. But I always get a feeling that he is more than just an ordinary darkfriend (not counting the Sammael theory).
 
blink said:
The thing is, in winters heart, Demandred says to the ash'man "kill him" then the Mhael is also quoted saying "kill him".

isnt Elza black ajah?
Click to expand...

she knocked O'sangar off because she didn't know he was a forsaken and thought she'd be forgiven for killing a darkfriend in order to keep her cover.

they found Rand by Alanna's warder bond with him but I don't know how the Asha'man found them.
 
PanzerOberst said:
My oppinion is that he IS Demandred. There's the mystery in how RJ made no mention at all of when/how Taim knew about the kidnapping and when to arrive Dumai Wells.
Click to expand...

That plot point is actually addressed in The Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game that was published back in 2001. It was the basis for an adventure in the game. It's unclear how canonical this is, although RJ did approve the RPG and wrote an introduction for it.
 
Niolani said:
Yes, and O'sangar was Aginor re-housed in a new body but Elza Penfell knocked him off.
Click to expand...

It was the other forsaken Blathemal that got knocked off the one that made the shadowspawn. Aginor is the other one aran'gar the one in the female body as he was a famous womaniser. The great loard has a sence of humor

flammableliquids said:
i would just like to say that i have heard this theory before and i disagree upon the simplist of reasons, Taim gave Al'thor a seal, and therefore at that stage cannot be a Dark friend, let alone one of the forsaken.
Click to expand...

I disagree the seals are very very weak and nothing Rand can do will strengthen them they will break eventually and as there are only three remaining they should go quicker than before.
I think Taim is a darkfriend thats probably how he has survived the taint so long. I think his private lessons are to train new dreadloards for the last battel. Taim picked up how to make gateways very quickly and knew about angreal and sa'angreal. I have heard theories that Taim was trained by Isshy personally as he was only half sealed in the bore. I dont think hes one of the forsaken but a high ranking darkfriend and probably is going to be the leader of the male dreadlords.

Niolani said:
they found Rand by Alanna's warder bond with him but I don't know how the Asha'man found them.
Click to expand...

I think one of the asha'man was sent by Rand to get logain, one who is bonded to an aes sedi. So thats how they found him
 
The more that i read the more that i think that the M'hael was killed and replaced with Sammael.

Originally Posted by timekiller
I disagree the seals are very very weak and nothing Rand can do will strengthen them they will break eventually and as there are only three remaining they should go quicker than before.
Click to expand...
I seriously doubt that. The greater the influence of the Dark One, the better for dark friends, the idea of "oh he'll break through it eventually".... um right. Any dark friend or Forsaken would have taken the seal to Shayel watever straight away, if only to be in the good books of the dark one.

if u want proof that Demandred ISN'T the M'hael. Read the text in regards to Al'thors time in Far Madding. When one of the renegade Asha'man was ordered by; the M'hael, Ishmaheal aka Mordin, AND Demandred to hunt him down and kill him.

If Demandred knew that specific asha'man was already on the course to hunt and attempt to kill Al'thor why would he have bothered showing himself to a jumped up lackey at all?

Originally Posted by timekiller
I think one of the asha'man was sent by Rand to get logain, one who is bonded to an aes sedi. So thats how they found him
Click to expand...
That, I just don't understand. There were NO asha'man bonded to Aes sedi at that time, there wasn't even contact with aes sedi at that time.
 
First post. Hi all! :)

Winters_Sorrow said:
I haven't read the new book yet (all my collection is in TPB and I didn't want to stick a hulking HB next to them) but does the issue of the Forsaken come up a lot?
I'm still cheesed off that Robert Jordan invented Balefire which erases people from existance only for these 'dead' forsaken to come back thanks to the Dark Lord's intervention.
Massive, massive cop-out there and completely devalues his series IMO
Click to expand...

Actually, the balefired Forsaken haven't returned. Bel'al and Rahvin were balefired, and the Dark Lord told Demandred that Rahvin served him well, but unfortunately he was out of his reach.

The Forsaken that have returned are Balthamel (as Aran'gar; was killed by the Nym at the Eye of the World); Aginor (as Osan'gar; burned himself with pure saidin at the Eye of the World), Ishamael (as Moridin; stabbed in the chest with Callandor), Lanfear (as Cyndane; presumably died somehow in the Aelffin/Eelffin-land).

Presumably Sammael, eaten by Mashadar, is also "out of the Dark One's reach". Asmodean, on the other hand, was a traitor and is probably burning in a very special hell. :)

blink said:
i just re-read "winters heart" and no he isnt demandred but hes deff. a darkfriend.

The guy dashiva is/was ors'angar or something like that.
Click to expand...

Taim is not Demandred, though they share many personality traits. There are two main reasons: Demandred failed to recognize Flinn at the battle of Shadar Logoth (paraphrasing: "Who's that man in black coming at me? I'm gonna kill him. Oh, ****! He's channeling!"); and Robert Jordan reportedly said so multiple times. :)

Corlan Dashiva was Osan'gar in disguise. Osan'gar was a ressurected Aginor. I doubt that his incompetence merits a second ressurection, though. :)

timekiller said:
It was the other forsaken Blathemal that got knocked off the one that made the shadowspawn. Aginor is the other one aran'gar the one in the female body as he was a famous womaniser. The great loard has a sence of humor
Click to expand...

You got them mixed up. Aginor was the shadowspawn creator, Balthamel the lecher.

Back to Taim, there's a lot more to him that meets the eye. He is clearly a Darkfriend. If nothing else, the prologue of Knife of Dreams makes that clear.

I kinda hope he was promoted to Forsaken. Moridin had 11 chairs for only 8 living Forsaken in the meeting at the beginning of the book. That implies that there may be three more. That whole room of Asha'man at the end of the book (100+) laughs at his "Lord of Chaos" saying. Those and the Black Ajah may very well be the Dark Lord's army of Dreadlords. Taim did an excellent job if he recruited 100+ channeling Darkfriends. Enough to merit the Dark Lord's special attention, to be made "Chosen".

According to the books, only 30 people wielded the "True Power" back in the Age of Legends... I doubt they were any less than "Chosen". They also state that over a dozen Forsaken were killed during the War of the Power due to the Dark Lord being suspicious. That shows that the Forsaken ranks are pretty fluid. While it's a lot more likely that somehow Taim will lead the Dreadlords, it'd be cooler if he was a new Forsaken. At least if the Dark Lord promotes by power and competence, he's a shoe-in. :)
 
Oh wow! i had not considered the idea that Taim might have been promoted amongst darkfriends.

Nor the concept that there may be more dreadlords out there in the shadows!

But i disagree that Sammael's soul would have been outside the reach of the Dark One simply because Mashadar took it.

I was wondering if someone out there can answer something that i don't understand..... Liah, the Maiden of the spear who was left behind in Shadar Logoth and latter killed by Al'thor..... why did she hide from her spear sisters, getting her left behind for all that time? Was she a dark friend? and the touch of the dark one in her soul coupled with the darkness of Mashadar drove her nutz? i just don't get it. there i just SUCH a hole in it, i don't understand y.

i mean as a writer wat was the point of him even using her as a tool at all? eh i have deviated from the point some what, but then again, the point of this thread has been answered, and answered solidly in my opinion. NO Taim is NOT Sammael.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top